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Ford Focus Purchasing Center Discuss about special incentives and ordering information on the Focus & Focus ST.

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Old 11-02-2012, 11:46 AM   #1701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tell3131 View Post
Ok. I hear ya. What would be a great price on it where he would make some money then? Invoice minus all rebates? Dip into holdback a little?
I'd say $400 back less rebates is good.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:48 AM   #1702
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Originally Posted by disturbed932 View Post
Is Holdback calculated any differently for the ST (or any special models)? Is it still 3% of the configured MSRP? Just want to make sure $885.75 is the correct amount for an ST3, Moonroof, and TS paint. (30,320 - 795) * 0.03
All holdback is calculated the same
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #1703
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Clarification

Hello Ira. I just wanted to personally thank you for what you're doing helping the general public on the Focus forum purchasing. However, I would like to offer my two cents on visitors to this forum are looking for "fair pricing" on Foci.

Specifically, you replied to me regarding the ST that your dealer actual cost is "invoice minus holdbacks" minus any available incentives (none for the ST besides the usual private cash brochure, college, military, AXZD, etc.) You had also replied to me earlier (post #1688) in the ask a ford salesman thread that is indeed what you stated. However, for your dealership Phil Long, and many others across the nation, I simply disagree with your statements. The following comments are after some extensive research.

---That "DEALER INVOICE" is what a dealer paid for a vehicle is completely false.
---If you were the owner, founder, CEO, whatever head honcho of Phil Long Ford, how would you feel if DEALER INVOICE was the ACTUAL price you paid was PLASTERED ALL OVER THE INTERNET on sites like Edmunds, TrueCar, CarsDirect, Cars.com, Autobytel, KBB, etc.?
---Consumers shopping these aforementioned websites only have dealers in their "network" who get referral fees probably from you the dealer. I'm sure Phil Long is networked somewhere with some website or service. Because if you're not, you're missing out on a lot of potential suckers.
---You are in internet sales. How many times have you competed with another dealer to get rock bottom pricing?
---I'm sure you are aware of the numerous below the line programs by Ford and other manufacturers intended to maintain a healthy relationship with its dealer network.
---Specifically, to the thread, you have not mentioned how close your dealership is to reaching its sales targets for Focus. Even if you offered to ship the cars to the consumers local areas. Surely, if you were a few units from reaching your sales targets and have a six figure bonus from Ford, you wouldn't offer that sale to another dealer, would you?
---You incorrectly inform posters in the thread the invoice minus holdback is what you pay. HOLDBACK IS CHUMP CHANGE COMPARED TO HIDDEN INVISIBLE PROFIT INTENDED TO GO BACK TO THE DEALER.
---What invisible profit? How about the gradual decrease of the gross profit percentages off the sticker prices. After each model year, the profit percentage off sticker goes down gradually. THE MSRP remains the same or very slightly increased. While the INVOICE GETS BALOONED, getting closer and closer to MSRP. This "hidden" profit is then sent back to dealers to keep them happy and willing to sell vehicles.
---Why haven't you informed people that over the 2011, 2012, 2013 MY that the gross profit percentage of Focus has gone down, while raising the invoice at the same time, thus allowing more salesperson like you more wiggle room? Because that wiggle room is now intended to cover your payroll every week, and most likely any referral fees Phil Long is in networked with car buying sites.


I believe that is enough for now. My ultimate question to you Ira, is this. In post #1686 I have an attached pricing sheet for the ST in which I mentioned to you "Dealer Price. You denied that that sheet exists and that there are only tow options on your order banks, which I do believe. HOWEVER, for someone truly searching for THE BEST POSSIBLE PRICE, can THE DEALER PRICE as noted in the price sheet, be used as a fair starting point for negotiations?

That is all.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:47 PM   #1704
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Quote:
Hello Ira. I just wanted to personally thank you for what you're doing helping the general public on the Focus forum purchasing. However, I would like to offer my two cents on visitors to this forum are looking for "fair pricing" on Foci.

Specifically, you replied to me regarding the ST that your dealer actual cost is "invoice minus holdbacks" minus any available incentives (none for the ST besides the usual private cash brochure, college, military, AXZD, etc.) You had also replied to me earlier (post #1688) in the ask a ford salesman thread that is indeed what you stated. However, for your dealership Phil Long, and many others across the nation, I simply disagree with your statements. The following comments are after some extensive research.

---That "DEALER INVOICE" is what a dealer paid for a vehicle is completely false.
---If you were the owner, founder, CEO, whatever head honcho of Phil Long Ford, how would you feel if DEALER INVOICE was the ACTUAL price you paid was PLASTERED ALL OVER THE INTERNET on sites like Edmunds, TrueCar, CarsDirect, Cars.com, Autobytel, KBB, etc.?
---Consumers shopping these aforementioned websites only have dealers in their "network" who get referral fees probably from you the dealer. I'm sure Phil Long is networked somewhere with some website or service. Because if you're not, you're missing out on a lot of potential suckers.
---You are in internet sales. How many times have you competed with another dealer to get rock bottom pricing?
---I'm sure you are aware of the numerous below the line programs by Ford and other manufacturers intended to maintain a healthy relationship with its dealer network.
---Specifically, to the thread, you have not mentioned how close your dealership is to reaching its sales targets for Focus. Even if you offered to ship the cars to the consumers local areas. Surely, if you were a few units from reaching your sales targets and have a six figure bonus from Ford, you wouldn't offer that sale to another dealer, would you?
---You incorrectly inform posters in the thread the invoice minus holdback is what you pay. HOLDBACK IS CHUMP CHANGE COMPARED TO HIDDEN INVISIBLE PROFIT INTENDED TO GO BACK TO THE DEALER.
---What invisible profit? How about the gradual decrease of the gross profit percentages off the sticker prices. After each model year, the profit percentage off sticker goes down gradually. THE MSRP remains the same or very slightly increased. While the INVOICE GETS BALOONED, getting closer and closer to MSRP. This "hidden" profit is then sent back to dealers to keep them happy and willing to sell vehicles.
---Why haven't you informed people that over the 2011, 2012, 2013 MY that the gross profit percentage of Focus has gone down, while raising the invoice at the same time, thus allowing more salesperson like you more wiggle room? Because that wiggle room is now intended to cover your payroll every week, and most likely any referral fees Phil Long is in networked with car buying sites.


I believe that is enough for now. My ultimate question to you Ira, is this. In post #1686 I have an attached pricing sheet for the ST in which I mentioned to you "Dealer Price. You denied that that sheet exists and that there are only tow options on your order banks, which I do believe. HOWEVER, for someone truly searching for THE BEST POSSIBLE PRICE, can THE DEALER PRICE as noted in the price sheet, be used as a fair starting point for negotiations?

That is all.
I love people like you to assume they know everything, yet know nothing. Your just upset because you can't get the price you want.

People like you we sales man can argue with, or we can shake your hand, smile, and tell you to get out of our offices and have a wonderful life.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:50 PM   #1705
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You can start negotiating wherever you like. "Fair" is the price both you and the dealer willingly agree to.

Don't be surprised if they show you the door if you start off 3% below the invoice price (dealer price). That's the dealer's choice.

Since the Focus ST is new, eagerly anticipated, widely hyped, and scarce compared to current demand, expecting a super-sweetheart deal on one is unrealistic at best. I had negotiations fall apart with my closest dealer as they insisted on $34k for an ST3. (The next dealership down the highway was happy to take X-plan. They all make their own choices.) If everyone but me were paying $34K for the ST, that would be the "fair" price. As it happens, we're not... but then, I haven't heard of any ST3s selling for $26K out-the-door, either.

Local sales targets and so on are certainly a reason a dealer might choose to settle for a lower amount from the buyer. They benefit in some way other than just the cash from the buyer, and so they might well consider that a "fair" deal and thus voluntarily accept it. On another day, they might not be in that same position; the very same number from a different buyer no longer is as attractive, and so they might choose not to make that deal. Because of such factors, there's no one fixed number that's "fair" -- and if there were, it wouldn't be the lowest price you'd ever heard of anyone, anywhere, ever getting.

Remember the widespread experiments with no-haggle dealerships back in the 90s? Their prices were almost universally more than that a good negotiator would get, and equally universally less than what a naive or over-eager buyer might pay. The two average out.

If your definition of "fair" is "everyone gets exactly the same price", that number is going to be a lot higher than invoice minus holdback minus unspecified other amounts. Informed, tough negotiators like yourself are going to have to pay extra in that case, because the dealer isn't going to make that up from someone less demanding. If you get a car below the average sales price, then by definition someone else has to be paying more than the average price -- or the "average" wouldn't be an average.

If you're going to bring up every possible dollar Ford might send to a dealership (whether tied to an individual car sale, or something more general), then to be "fair" you also have to bring up every single cost to the dealer that's not printed on that invoice. Time for all those employees, money to buy the lot, build the building, remodel it whenever Ford changes their marketing and branding; maintenance; SG&A expenses; finance charges on their cash flow. There are "hidden" costs as well as hidden benefits.

Personally, I don't feel like having to audit every business I deal with in that kind of detail. Dealers can keep endless lists of individual fees to themselves -- and I'll expect to pay more than the raw cost of the product, because the dealer needs more money that that even before some of it goes into his pocket. Every business has to make more money than its materials cost.

Incidentally, invoice pricing and dealer cost _is_ plastered all over the 'Net, so I'm not sure what your "how would like it" point is supposed to be. Edmund's web site doesn't tell you any more, in favor of their localized "True Market Value" thing, but books of such is of course how Edmund's got their start.

Also, I'd disagree that rebates affect dealer cost. Rebates are a form of payment for the car. It's a check from Ford to you, the buyer, which you might sign over to the dealer in partial payment for the car. They don't go direct to the dealer at all; it's just more convenient for most people to let the dealer keep the money and avoid having to collect a check. And the rebates don't show up at the dealer until after the sale. So, from a cash flow perspective, they're of absolutely no use in getting that car onto the lot to be sold in the first place.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:36 PM   #1706
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Plus the oldie days of ripping people off are simply gone. As long as your not a complete idiot your going get a fair deal...
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #1707
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Some people assume that you can buy everything for $1,500 below invoice though.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:51 AM   #1708
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Well, in my opinion, everyone is right in the few past posts. I am dealing with purchasing a 2013 Ford Edge and I am buying at X-Plan, which turns out to be $100 or so above invoice but then I only pay $100 in doc costs vs $200 for this dealer. Now, from my understanding the dealer gets a $345 spiff? check from ford for each x-Plan deal, and they get their holdback of 3% of MSRP. I am fine with that, I figure that the dealer makes about $1400 or so on this car, but I have been in there numerous times, test driven, Explorer, Edge, Escape, dealt with various salesguys (when the owner wasn't there). While I was sitting in with the owner one time talking what I would like to order, the guy who changes the lights on the lot came in and talked to him about the timers for the lights. The owner said, well, stuff gets stolen between 1:00-4:00AM normally, so we need to be sure to have the lights turned on then. My point, is that I can't begin to imagine the cost to run a dealership. It isn't like the building, lights, gas, water, employees are all free to the dealer and they just sit there and make a ton of profit on every auto they sell. Now, do they make money? Yes, the do. BUT what is wrong with that? How much markup in an iMac Apple computer? Does Best Buy make money selling it at $1600? What is their actual cost?
To me, get a price you are happy with, if the dealer makes some money, then good, because they employee people, employee other businesses, and help the community in that regard. What if we all bought a car/truck/suv for $50 over actual dealer cost? There wouldn't be many if any dealers around. I know we can debate this over and over . . .
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #1709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik00117 View Post
Plus the oldie days of ripping people off are simply gone. As long as your not a complete idiot your going get a fair deal...
The As long as your not a complete idiot part is key here. I think "some" dealerships try to take people as much as they can. Having forums with people like you and imccrea really help to educate people. I know one of the ford dealerships I went to on my car search blantantly lied to me about rebates saying that there were non available for my titanium among some of the other little trick they tried.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:19 PM   #1710
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How long does it take after you factory order through a dealer for the dealer to tell you the ETA of your car? AKA when does the dealer hear from the factory?

The reason I ask is because I ordered my 2013 SE+ last Monday, and I haven't heard back from them yet when the expected delivery is going to be. Not that I expect them to give me a day-to-day update, but it disconcerted me a little bit that the dealer called me on Friday to ask me whether I wanted a specific car they found at a nearby dealer (though the dealer admitted that I probably didn't want it since it wasn't the right trim).

It got me thinking that maybe the dealer actually haven't made the factory order yet. Unless the order can be canceled, it didn't make sense for the dealer to order a manual car for me and then sell me a car from another dealer. It's not like they can let go of a surplus'd manual easily.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but is the above evidence enough for me to believe the dealer holding on to my order? I just don't want to have to wait any longer than I have to to get my car!
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