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Old 02-25-2011, 07:43 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellicose View Post
They mentioned they were using race gas (111 octane) when running his personal car at 13.5:1 A/F
Higher octane does little to help/change with Air Fuel ratios

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Old 02-25-2011, 07:49 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by inis View Post
what do you guys do with timing?

Currently I idle at 10 advanced and work my way up to 33 on 15psi.
The Zetec engine likes lower timing to idle , 33 to me seems a little high for 15psi but you have standalone and not sure how you have things configured it would be interesting to see what a knock sensor says about the timing that high with that much boost

I can only give you an avg for 15psi because diff codes on the Zetec are diff advances but I would say an avg is in the 23-26 and some codes 26-28 deg range for 15psi but again that being 15psi at about 300-310 HP lower HP/TQ would allow for more timing

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Old 02-25-2011, 07:56 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Higher octane does little to help/change with Air Fuel ratios

Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by focusguy87 View Post
This would be interesting. Also do you know your EGT's? When running 13:1 Under Forced Induction?

I've been working for and with a performance shop. Not saying I'm an expert or have more experience but I would figure that you would have to pull so much timing at 13:1 do avoid detonation. Also prolonged pulls, or long pulls the intense heat build up could melt pistons, warp cylinder heads, burn exhaust valves.

Just curious more data on the 13:1 car?
this is what I meant to refer to, I should have made it more clear. My mistake. I guess the bigger piping, larger intercooler, and 4" exhaust helps keep the EGT's down. I know that focus is used for drag racing though, not road/circuit courses. I guess that is where the application of the car will count for that, so its not much of a worry. I'd imagine if it does become an issue they can use other cooling tricks like meth or go with corn (E85).
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:03 AM   #64
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EGT is controled by what happens inside the Cly (AF / Timing) and little of the final EGT comes from whats hooked to the engine

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Old 02-25-2011, 08:04 AM   #65
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For those Garrett fans straight from there web site

"Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine. "

And some more good reading on AF

"3. High Load
A naturally aspirated engine should run an air/fuel ratio of around 12 - 13:1 at peak torque. The exact air/fuel ratio can be determined by dyno testing, with the ratio selected on the basis of the one that gives best torque. Rich air/fuel ratios can be used to control detonation, and this is a strategy normally employed in forced induction engines. Thus, on a forced induction engine, the mixture should be substantially richer: 11.6 - 12.3:1 on a boosted turbo car and as rich as 11:1 on an engine converted to forced aspiration without being decompressed. As is also the case for ignition timing, the air/fuel ratio should vary with torque, rather than with power."

I have always said to build and tune for TQ not HP



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Old 02-25-2011, 08:15 AM   #66
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This is from one of the members in the EVO crowd, lets expand our knowledge base shall we? Wouldn't an efficient Intercooler relative to the power out put with the pipes to flow that cooler air into the combustion chamber help with lowering the EGT's?


Quote:
Originally Posted by guy from evo crowd
For water/methanol injection one of the issues has always been jet placement. Closer to the combustion chamber the more the injectant has a direct effect on influencing the flame front in the combustion chamber. Its because of the injectant not breaking down into smaller particles like as with a jet located close to the IC exit tank. The bigger molecules as a result of port injection help the flame front to propagate through the combustion chamber without pre-igniting...........high octane fuel has this effect = resists premature burn and heat spot ignition. Methanol even goes further with this because of its octane value, so if you can tune for the methanol by removing some of the fuel via PCM tuning and then replacing it with methanol and then adding boost you will have the ability to make a lot more power.

Injecting at the IC exit tank for instance, gives the injectant more time to break down into smaller particles and become more thoroughly mixed with the Intake air change and this helps to cool the charge down........the effect is very similar to why an intercooler is used and why cool dense air make more power. A water and methanol mix injected at this point does better at intake air charge temp cooling then straight water or methanol.

Helping to control knock is the main thing being done with water/methanol injection and the thing is that with knock and turbo cars the intake air charge temp is part of the issue as well the quality of the burn in the combustion chamber..........by using a jet in the intake air charge tract to cool the charge AND using port injection you can go after TWO issues that are directly effecting knock.

Here's some images of jet adapters installed for a direct port injection setup:



(Plug installed in the jet adapters)

IC exit tank jet and soft pipe install


Soft pipe adapter if drilling a IC is not an option



(Last image has plug installed in the jet adapter)

Subi intake


Toyota




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Old 02-25-2011, 08:55 AM   #67
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Were not talking about water meth or EGT tho , Air Fuel Ratio

Yes a cooler air charge will lower the EGT if the IAT were high but I dont think anyone is having intercooling issues or high IAT temps with most Turbocharged Foci , yes water meth will also lower the EGT but again that is happening as much in the combustion as it does cooling the air going to the engine

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Old 02-25-2011, 11:10 AM   #68
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Tom,
So far megasquirt has been dead on with timing. I have a digital timing gun and I can advance it to what megasquirt says its doing and get timing notches perfectly marked. I've not done alot of full boost runs because of weather, but I probably should take timing down a notch.

I do not have a knock sensor installed, I used all the provisions in the block for other items. Also everyone I know that has used a knock sensor with megasquirt has had a hard time making with work properly with the ford sensor. There is a aftermarket knock sensor that works really well with MS but I chose to pass on it.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:10 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
For those Garrett fans straight from there web site

"Leaner AFR results in higher temperatures as the mixture is combusted. Generally, normally-aspirated spark-ignition (SI) gasoline engines produce maximum power just slightly rich of stoichiometric. However, in practice it is kept between 12:1 and 13:1 in order to keep exhaust gas temperatures in check and to account for variances in fuel quality. This is a realistic full-load AFR on a normally-aspirated engine but can be dangerously lean with a highly-boosted engine. "

And some more good reading on AF

"3. High Load
A naturally aspirated engine should run an air/fuel ratio of around 12 - 13:1 at peak torque. The exact air/fuel ratio can be determined by dyno testing, with the ratio selected on the basis of the one that gives best torque. Rich air/fuel ratios can be used to control detonation, and this is a strategy normally employed in forced induction engines. Thus, on a forced induction engine, the mixture should be substantially richer: 11.6 - 12.3:1 on a boosted turbo car and as rich as 11:1 on an engine converted to forced aspiration without being decompressed. As is also the case for ignition timing, the air/fuel ratio should vary with torque, rather than with power."

I have always said to build and tune for TQ not HP



Tom
That is still a whole point off of where the logs I see of your tunes are. The fact is the car can be ran leaner than that, if you don't trust it, don't do it. But you can't tell people they are wrong when they have clearly been running cars for years at leaner afrs. Like I said before, I typically tune turbo cars to 11.5-12.0 depending on the situation, and I have had very good success with that.

The only reason I brought up the fact that I have run cars even leaner is just to prove the point further that if you car goes above 12:1 its not just magically going to go kaboom. And if you wonder why I would run a car that lean. Well it makes more power and its a risk I am willing to take with my own engines. If your not, then don't do it.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:11 PM   #70
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I think you will find like I did that when you start working the Focus above a few 1/4 mile passes every few months that you will see as I did that higher then 11 on the AF isnt safe , I also use to tune them in the high 11 to 12 AF till I started actually running them more then 1/4 mile passes every now and them and sure a leaner car makes more HP/TQ but at what cost why not go to 13.3 then

I think you will also find little diff in TQ between 10.8 and 11.8 , I have a car on the dyno now and will post the AF at diff places when I get back from tuning in NJ next week

But like you said if its working for then have at it , None of whats been said in the articals was directed at you

Tom
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