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Old 02-19-2011, 09:03 AM   #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmoose View Post
"Thank God it's only manual!" I hear that a lot on a lot of forums and automotive blogging sites. It's that sort of mentality which turns me off from brands like Ford and Mazda, which offer their sport trims in manual only. I truly respect enthusiasts who prefer to row their own gears, as well as the skills involved in being able to do that so effortlessly. But being elitist about it and excluding drivers that may prefer an automatic is just straight up asinine.

Luckily most manufacturers are evolving in the 21st century and are offering a dual clutch option in their sport trim cars. I think most manual drivers simply feel threatened that their choice of transmission will eventually be phased out. To be honest I hope not either. The entire point of the argument is to give us MORE options, not create some communistic lineup of sporty cars. Don't forget that we live in America.

Even though I'm not a fan of the 2012 Focus ST and I don't plan on buying one, it would be nice to see Ford take their PowerShift transmission seriously and remedy the situation. It's too early to tell right now whether they plan to do so, due to a technical hurdle. But if they get back into their old ways of sticking to manual only for their ST/SVT lineup, all I can say is that there are plenty of other manufacturers out there that'll keep me happy...

I didn't say "thank god". I guess I said it in a wrong way. My GF doesn't know how to drive a manual so I also see that side of things also. I guess I was just happy that the ability to find a manual in the performance version was just nice to hear. I am all for having a tiptronic type auto (the auto you can slap up and down to semi-manually shift gears). Not that I would personally buy one unless I had to. In my experience auto's also tend to have a bit less power and offer less MPGs. The new tranny in the Fiesta (I believe getting put into the regular Focus) does seem to be a bit different. I will admit to not having any experience with the new 6 speed auto Ford has, other than the Fiesta test beat I did. The Fiesta did surprisingly well but I never took it out of D the while time and my foot to to the floor almost the whole time on the highway.

What I am seeing with auto makers is that a lot of the cars and trucks are now being offered without a manual option. The F150 is not available in manual and has not been since like 2007 in a base V6 model. I had a friend looking for a 4Runner in 2001 and had to take a left over with 200+ miles because the manual was dropped in 2002. The Superduties still have manuals (or I think they do) but I am not up to date on the 08+ SD's. Yes I know I am just mentioning trucks here but the truck community also love there manual's as well.

The girlfriend just bought a Corolla S in an an auto. I was playing with it on the corners of back roads and slapping the shifter from D to 3 in the corners. It did good for extra power around corners but I also felt if I owned the car and did that all the time the shift mech in the car would soon break. My mom has a 08 Impreza with a sport mode on the shifter that allows tapping up and sown to go through the gears. I have fun with that at times but just find myself leaving the car in either D or S.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:09 AM   #602
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German or not, any dual clutch will sprint faster to 60 than a manual. The only reason why some prefer not to have it is because you lose the clutch pedal. Other then that it's the same exact thing as a regular manual, but with the benefit of a automatic mode too.

Any auto will shift faster than any manual.

In my experience auto's shift to early most of the time. But that is due to trying to keep MPGs up.

I like I can drive the car at 5K and bump the gas to get the quick little pickup when I want it. I can also go from 5 to 3 heal toeing to a quick stop. I also sometimes rev out 3rd in traffic than put it into 5th and cruise.

But yes it does seem manual is more for the fun factor.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:34 AM   #603
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I wasn't responding to you specifically, DognamedMack (which is why I didn't quote you). I just wanted to jump on the auto vs manual discussion before it escalated. But on that topic traditional autos do have a tendency to hunt the wrong gears or annoyingly hang revs. Even the "tiptronic" system of traditional autos has a tendency to lag behind because of the torque converter.

The best setup is a dual clutch transmission with paddle shifters. The response is instantaneous and smooth. Ford's SelectShift buttons on the shift knob has been getting a lot of stink in reviews lately, and honestly I'm going to have to agree with them. I'm hoping that Ford adopts real paddle shifters for future SelectShift revisions.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:24 AM   #604
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And I've yet to see a 0-60 for Ford's DCT either so the jury will remain out on whether or not this transmission will out-perform a MTX...

In theory, it should be better than a person rowing the gears, but it has to be more than a little better because it has to make up for the extra weight it brings with it.

EDIT: 2012 Titanium (only available with the automatic Powershift): 0-60 in 8.7s
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus/2012/#fullreview
(now we just need a MTX time to compare, but you can't get one in a Titanium))
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:59 AM   #605
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And I've yet to see a 0-60 for Ford's DCT either so the jury will remain out on whether or not this transmission will out-perform a MTX...

In theory, it should be better than a person rowing the gears, but it has to be more than a little better because it has to make up for the extra weight it brings with it.

EDIT: 2012 Titanium (only available with the automatic Powershift): 0-60 in 8.7s
http://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus/2012/#fullreview
(now we just need a MTX time to compare, but you can't get one in a Titanium))


Posted via FF Mobile And edmunds has terrible drivers, their times are usually below average, so I'm going to say average 8.5 and on a good day like 8.3, 8.2.
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Old 02-19-2011, 11:12 AM   #606
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Yah, but how do NOT drive an automatic to spec? (You may be right, anyways about Edmunds) but it seems pretty simple. I suppose they just mash on the gas when maybe you can gain a tenth or two by brake-holding to a certain RPM...
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:02 PM   #607
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Posted via FF Mobile And edmunds has terrible drivers, their times are usually below average, so I'm going to say average 8.5 and on a good day like 8.3, 8.2.
Agreed. Just another reason you and I need to infiltrate their ranks as automotive journalists, to bring some skill and credibility back to Edmunds's performance tests.

I don't like the idea of automated anything, but I will concede that it does work very well for spirited driving. Admittedly, I've never driven Ford's system, but I have spent time with the dual-clutch-flappy-paddle-thingamajig in the Evo X MR. In manual mode, it blipped the throttle automatically, which was correct...but disorienting. I can see the mass appeal, especially as I blasted through all six gears on the highway, but there was one issue that turned me off:

I had no fun. I felt like the car was controlling me, not vice versa like it should be. Sure, I'd bet anyone here $20 that I'd be faster around a track with a DSG than a traditional 5 speed. But I'd bet ten times than amount that I'd come out of the manual with a bigger smile on my face.

If I have to have a nontraditional manual...can I get a fully sequential gearbox like rally? I could live with that. Then again, I can also live with driving a traditional manual every day, in traffic. I did many trips on the FDR, BQE, LIE, etc. with a twin-disc (which has since been replaced by a triple disc) clutch in a poorly tuned Evo IX. Now, if I could do that often without tearing my hair out, a stock Fiesta with a featherlight clutch shouldn't be tougher than rolling out of bed.

That said, I've only had my license four years, so maybe I'm not tired of it all yet.
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Old 02-19-2011, 02:30 PM   #608
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Thank you moose

And to bring up more discussion I hope there is a true cable setup between the skinny pedal and the throttle body. After driving my parents old A6 I never want to own an A6. The lag on response was like a week long. I'd press the peddle and the car would start to go. Press a little more and nothing so I press harder and than it all catches up and I've got more gas than expected or needed. I also heard of complaints on the F150 lag with its throttle by wire.

I just hope if the ST gets throttle by wire that the response is dead on.
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Old 02-19-2011, 03:16 PM   #609
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I hope it can fly.

I hope it comes with a free membership to LA Fitness.

I hope it runs the 1/4 mile in under 3.1415 seconds.

I hope it comes in champagne beige.

I hope I can buy a buddy pack with my girlfriend, since my credit sucks.

I hope the interior is pizza resistant.

I hope it has more than 6 turbos.

I hope it comes with a Robert Goulet CD.

I hope it costs less than a Kit Kat bar. (King size)

I hope it gets unlimited miles per gallon. (Yes I want it to run on hopes and dreams.)

I hope it can be driven underwater.

I hope it matches my KISS t-shirt.

I hope it comes with the "adult version" of MyFordTouch...

I hope it is featured in at least one Subway commercial.

I hope it comes in a 1 door model.

I hope it comes with a herra frush option... (Seriously on this one.)

I hope it comes in AWD, RWD and FWD, all at once.

I hope GEICO can save me 15% or more on insurance on it.

I hope its called the SVT/ST/RS.

I hope it comes with a set of blue suede shoes.

I hope it comes with push button start, push button radio, and push button ejecto seato CUZ!

I hope it comes with revo knuckles...

I hope it come with a quintuple clutch system with a manual option, paddle shifters, putton shifters and an XBOX 360 controller.

I hope it actually comes with a PS3 controller, not the XBOX 360 one.

I hope its subwoofer can properly output Bombs over Baghdad by Outkast.

I hope it never understeers or oversteers and comes with 445/10 - 27s on 14lb wheels.

I hope it has vibrating headrests.

I hope it comes with a bag of Cheetos.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:31 PM   #610
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LOL @ kylesvt720... you okay there? I like that your user title matches the post too, hahah...



Quote:
Originally Posted by DognamedMack View Post
Thank you moose

And to bring up more discussion I hope there is a true cable setup between the skinny pedal and the throttle body. After driving my parents old A6 I never want to own an A6. The lag on response was like a week long. I'd press the peddle and the car would start to go. Press a little more and nothing so I press harder and than it all catches up and I've got more gas than expected or needed. I also heard of complaints on the F150 lag with its throttle by wire.

I just hope if the ST gets throttle by wire that the response is dead on.
I don't think we'll see any manufacturers going backwards with that. Cars are electronic-assisted everything nowadays, and any manufacturer that hasn't caught up yet will do so in a few years. Part of it has to do with weight savings and fuel economy bragging rights.

The reason the Audi has throttle lag is simple—it's idiot proof. Back in the '80s Audi became the target of a major "sudden unintended acceleration" investigation for their 5000 model. Sound familiar? Anyway they introduced a braking override system to make their cars idiot proof.

Newer models (including VWs) now have a slight throttle delay set from the factory to prevent further cases of unintended acceleration. It's not a limitation of the electronic throttle system itself, but rather a safety feature for stupid drivers. Fortunately a chip or tune can get rid of the nanny system.
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