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Old 05-05-2010, 11:56 AM   #81
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If this bolt is as torqued on there as it appears (after rereading the whole thread) and assuming it ain't a LH thread, then maybe it's time just to grind the head off the bolt. This might be a better option than possibly doing more damage. That'll release the torque/get the pulley off.......removing the threaded bolt shank from the crank shouldn't be a problem (famous last words).........Sailor......supposedly starter torque could do it. I started working for a mid-sized airline in the late '60s and for about the first four years we still owned a DC3 (in an otherwise all large jet fleet) that was only used every so often for pilot training and prospective new pilot checkouts. Sometimes we got to "play" (prep for flight/runups). The "old guys" were paranoid insistant on always hand rotating the props (first, check both mags off) so many revolutions (twin row, geared prop) to ensure cylinders clear. Starting.......starter sw. ON......count so many blades before mags on/prime.......mixture rich, followed by some wonderful sounds/smoke. A large fire extinguisher always at the ready. But......thank goodness for gas turbines.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:21 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Posted via FF MobileFamiliar with the aircraft scenario, WWII aircraft often had engines hand cranked B4 starting to "clear" cylinders... The damage scenario in my understanding was from a quick fire on one cyl. then hydrolocking on another.... Current procedure to prevent is cranking with mags off before starting... So - not to worry as no cranking with plugs & wires hooked up right? (on those radials, hydrolock or a timing misfire (early) could sometimes blow a jug right off!)

Current procedure to prevent is cranking with mags off before starting...?
blow a jug right off?
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If this bolt is as torqued on there as it appears (after rereading the whole thread) and assuming it ain't a LH thread, then maybe it's time just to grind the head off the bolt. This might be a better option than possibly doing more damage. That'll release the torque/get the pulley off.......removing the threaded bolt shank from the crank shouldn't be a problem (famous last words).
but what if the thread is held with thread lock?

or did you mean to just remove the outer edge of the bolt head and form the centre into the shape of the the bolt shaft so that there is something to hold on to with the locking grips? [to get it/'the shaft' out]?

how about using a dremel rotary tool with a thin carbide cutting disk where the bolt head 'rear face' meets the crank pulley pressure washer and make a grove right round the back of the bolt head? This would have the effect of making it look as though the bolt had not been fully tightened up in the first place i.e. about a 1mm gap between the bolt head and washer; do you see what I mean? This would surely relieve the torque/pressure? Then it would be a lot easier to turn with the breaker bar! ~ yes?

I can't re-use the bolt anyway - it's junk!

I have a dremel and an angle grinder.

...crowds now gather for every scheduled attempt. I'm hoping for a round of applause if I ever get the sodding thing out!!
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:48 PM   #84
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I don't think that the factory would use threadlocker.....but maybe someone else did if you haven't owned the car from new. Grind the head off so that what's left is the shank dia. of the bolt......the pulley ain't held on by the bolt anymore. There should be quite a good "stub" left after the pulley comes off. The washer should help prevent pulley damage during this process. I know that access may not be easy. I would just start by cutting the hex points off and working inwards......unless you've got room to come in from the side and groove under the head (which would release the torque on the bolt as you've suggested). Make damn sure that you use a face guard!! Ignore the sidetalk on hydraulicing cylinders (a jug is a cylinder on an aircooled engine......the attach studs sometimes pulled out of the Al/Mg crankcase).
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I don't think that the factory would use threadlocker.....but maybe someone else did if you haven't owned the car from new. Grind the head off so that what's left is the shank dia. of the bolt......the pulley ain't held on by the bolt anymore. There should be quite a good "stub" left after the pulley comes off. The washer should help prevent pulley damage during this process. I know that access may not be easy. Ignore the sidetalk on hydraulicing cylinders (a jug is a cylinder on an aircooled engine......the attach studs sometimes pulled out of the Al/Mg crankcase).
I may not have time or daylight to do this today, but when I've had 'a go' I'll let you know the result ~ cheers!
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:16 PM   #86
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I don't like this. I found a UK website that had a PDF copy of a factory service manual section for "in car service" for Zetecs. The pulley bolt torque is supposed to be only 80-85 ft/lbs. I'm now wondering if someone has used Loctite/threadlocker on the damn bolt........with or without it I can't believe that yours is hanging on like it is. If it's been Loctited then you are going to have a major issue with removing the reminant of the bolt if you grind/shear the head off. And.......on another website someone had used Loctite because he couldn't hold the crank secure enough to get the required torque, so if you don't know the history of the car........maybe it is a possibility. Are you absolutely satisfied that you've impacted this sucker with enough oomph?? Can you have the car with the wheels on the ground and still access the pulley bolt? It's a manual tranny car, right?.......I'd sure like to see another try of impacting this sucker......put it in 4th or 5th gear......block all four tires on the backside, each with a standard brick (and parking brake on), and have another go at it with a good pneumatic impact gun (rent the compressor and gun if you have to). There will be some "windup" of the driveline, but it's unavoidable, but you shouldn't hurt anything but the bolt or yourself. Impact it until it breaks loose (be patient, it may take a LOT of "impacts".......but it's gotta come loose. On another UK website some chap stated that he figured it took about 250 NM (about 200 ft/lbs) to break his pulley bolt free.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:53 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I don't like this. I found a UK website that had a PDF copy of a factory service manual section for "in car service" for Zetecs. The pulley bolt torque is supposed to be only 80-85 ft/lbs.
I know about the 80-85 ft/lbs torque. That is why the guy at machine mart said the 450Nm impact wrench I bought would shift it with no problem, he was really surprised when I rang to say that it had no effect what-so-ever! [except to slightly round off the bolt hex head].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I'm now wondering if someone has used Loctite/threadlocker on the damn bolt........with or without it I can't believe that yours is hanging on like it is. If it's been Loctited then you are going to have a major issue with removing the reminant of the bolt if you grind/shear the head off.
There are 3 previous owners of the vehicle, it's a 2002 reg. The first one had it for a year and did 30,000 miles. The second one had it for about 3 weeks and hardly used it; he passed it on to his son who had it from 2003 - 2010 and clocked it up to 108,000 miles. The son assured me that he had never had the cam/timing belt changed, nor authorised any garage to remove the crankshaft pulley for any reason what-so-ever; he stated that the crankshaft bolt therefore should still be as it was when first manufactured by the Ford plant! Obviously I don't know if he was lying to me?


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And.......on another website someone had used Loctite because he couldn't hold the crank secure enough to get the required torque, so if you don't know the history of the car........maybe it is a possibility.
Could be?

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Are you absolutely satisfied that you've impacted this sucker with enough oomph??
yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Can you have the car with the wheels on the ground and still access the pulley bolt? It's a manual tranny car, right?
yes and yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
.......I'd sure like to see another try of impacting this sucker......put it in 4th or 5th gear......block all four tires on the backside, each with a standard brick (and parking brake on), and have another go at it with a good pneumatic impact gun (rent the compressor and gun if you have to). There will be some "windup" of the driveline, but it's unavoidable, but you shouldn't hurt anything but the bolt or yourself. Impact it until it breaks loose (be patient, it may take a LOT of "impacts".......but it's gotta come loose.
Well now; only the front right wheel was raised, the rest were on the ground, the hand brake was on, the car was in 5th. gear, 'wheels choked', a spanner on each cam shaft [to lock], old timing belt still fitted, spark plugs in, a device holding both cam shaft pulleys steady [i.e everything I could think of totally locked up!]. I applied CCW force with the breaker bar on the crank bolt and applied CW FORCE on the pulley with a rubber strap wrench, but after a couple of seconds the rubber strap wrench slipped, the crank timing sprocket and pulley moved and jumped about three teeth on the old timing belt, the spanners shot off the cams and hit the under side of the bonnet with extreme force and speed and the cam retainer sprang out of position. I thought that I had applied 'one hell of a force' to that bolt? ~ which made no impression what-so-ever, just like the 450Nm impact wrench; i.e. no bolt movement [backwards or forwards].

I suppose I could try a chain wrench instead of the rubber strap wrench?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
On another UK website some chap stated that he figured it took about 250 NM (about 200 ft/lbs) to break his pulley bolt free.
......the guy at machine mart said the 450Nm impact wrench I bought would shift it with no problem, he was really surprised when I rang to say that it had no effect what-so-ever! [except to slightly round off the bolt hex head]. I can't afford the 1000 ft/lbs air impact wrench. I can rent an air compressor but I would have to buy the air impact gun - and good quality ones aren't cheap! i.e. prohibitively expensive! [££££].
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:46 PM   #88
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It's as if the bolt head is bloody well welded to the washer/pulley. I guess all you'll end up doing is rounding the bolt head off (more) before it loosens off or shears, or hurting yourself.......that's one helluva good bolt. Even with high strength threadlocker, with enough torque/a good impact wrench, and assuming solid countertorque and a good purchase, a bolt should still loosen off, or shear. I guess it's Dremel time.
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Old 05-06-2010, 11:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
It's as if the bolt head is bloody well welded to the washer/pulley. I guess all you'll end up doing is rounding the bolt head off (more) before it loosens off or shears, or hurting yourself.......that's one helluva good bolt. Even with high strength threadlocker, with enough torque/a good impact wrench, and assuming solid countertorque and a good purchase, a bolt should still loosen off, or shear. I guess it's Dremel time.
no welding! Unless it's http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php?

It sheared! Dremeled a couple of mm right round the back of the head of the bolt & applied release oil. Borrowed a 1000 ft/lbs air impact wrench and compressor which had no effect! Re-inserted locking pin as advised 'here' and got 'a good purchase' applied 3 foot breaker bar yet again [in opposite direct /ccw] and it sheared off the head [of the bolt]. Pulley 'still!' looks pretty solid to me! As there are no lugs or holes in it to grab hold of I figure the only thing I can use is a regular three leg puller on the outside edge? The way this is going I figure that I could end up breaking the pulley or puller whilst it stubbornly and defiantly refuses to move [come off]! Also the locking pin will not come out; the more I try to unscrew it - the tighter it gets! Does this mean it is bent now? If I try to screw it out I think I will simply strip the thread in the bloke? So what now?
Oh yer I forgot that I had check the cam position with the flat timing bar, so as you might guess, this chipped off the small piece of both cams that form part of the timing slots; the lower more substantial part is still in tact and therefore I can still lay the timing bar horizontally across the 'timing flat of both cams' and the flat of the top of the head [in a straight line] for timing purposes.


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Old 05-06-2010, 12:15 PM   #90
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With the amount of fight that bolt is giving you, you could have installed a V8 by now! I hate pesky bolts like that.
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