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Old 05-16-2010, 09:06 PM   #201
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The flywheel locking tool has to be solidly bolted to the clutch/tranny case and the tool tooth is slid in between two ring gear teeth as far as you can get it and then the bolt is tightened.......it should feel/will be solid. So you will need a couple of bolts that are threaded right down to just under the head, or bolts with more like the correct grip length. I suspect that the correct pulley bolt torque procedure is actually the torque and turn method. The aftermarket pulley manufacturers "trick" is to "convert" it to a straight torque value. It would be a good idea if you can confirm the correct value/s. It has to be for your engine.....not an engine with a "keyed" sprocket/pulley. The 30 ft/lbs plus 90 degs. sounds reasonable, but I sure think that you should confirm it, if you can. When you torque a bolt to a torque value such as this, the bolt is in constant tension (which is supplying the large clamping force), because it is actually stretched a "few" thousands of an inch. If you haven't bought a torque wrench yet I would buy a "click" type, 1/2" drive, up to 200 (or 250) ft/lbs. "Reasonable" ones for the home mechanic aren't that expensive. You'll use it again anyway, and.....stored with the setting adjuster backed right off. I see your problem re the engine mount and engine support. I was going to have you "preinstall" the crankshaft sprocket and pulley and torque the bolt, but I've changed my mind (this should hopefully mean doing it in "one shot"). I'd rather just see something like a light oil, or "varsol", or varsol type "paint thinner" (not sure of the British terminology) used for flushing the swarf.....as opposed to a volatile type solvent. But, either way, I'd apply engine oil to any bearings that may have been "flushed" with whatever solvent. Laquer thinner or equivalent (NOT alcohol) should be used to clean/prepare the block and oil pan surfaces for the RTV. Make sure you apply the bead line "inside" the line of bolt holes. Make sure that you initially just barely "snug up" the bolts at the block/pan splitline and then just snug the bolts at the oil pan tranny case split line just enough to bring those flanges together. Torque (if you can't find the torque value, then about 12 ft/lbs should be about right) the oil pan/block bolts first in two or three incruments (the opposite pairs) from the centre out to the ends, then the tranny housing ones last. Next will be the pulley bolt torquing, belt installation etc. EDIT......It dawned on me (after checking my own 1/2" drive torque wrench that has a max. torque rating of 150 ft/lbs, that the minimum available is 25 ft/lbs) that because you may have to accomplish an initial bolt torque of 30 ft/lbs that you may have to obtain a torque wrench with a lesser max. torque limit than I recommended above. So you may find that 200 ft/lb or 250 ft/lb "click" type torque wrenches don't go down to 30 ft/lbs. They will all have only so much range, plus unfortunately at both the low end and the high end of the scale "click" type torque wrenches can sometimes be out of the tolerance specification, but be just fine more in the middle of the range (our tool repair/calibrator guy at work, mentioned this......and these were Proto and Snap-On). The mechs were supposed to select a wrench that would not have to be used at the Min. or Max. limit. So, you may find you'll end up with one with a max. torque capability/limit of only 150 ft/lbs. That'll work, I think no matter what. The final 90 deg. bolt rotation will be done with a socket and a flex/extension bar anyway.

Last edited by Grumpy; 05-17-2010 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:35 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Posted via FF Mobile Flat in it`s case if you want a "serious" answer (grin) Beam type needs no recalibration, but more skill in use - my "click" types get light use, so I`ve never had them checked/calibrated. That`s more for ones in daily production line use anyways... Never heard of issues with good ones that weren`t abused. Angle torque (snug then turn specified degrees) is getting more common, as definitions of "lube" and lube used varies, even "dry" varies with some corrosion. Industrial is often spec`d lubed with anti seize compound, and I bet this is more info than you wanted!! Feel like standing on MY head to access some things on these cars, so the wrench has to fend for itself! (grin) Cheers Mate!
more ...erm yes! ~ I know my instructions did say to store the [click/oil filled wrench] vertically but I can't remember on which end? [to stand it]

cheers!
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:42 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
It's also possible that the bolt will have to loosened and the sprocket rotated on the crank a little bit, and then the bolt retorqed.
Another conundrum is: when I refit the timing sprocket, new belt 'over', plastic guard, pulley and bolt in that order, I can NO LONGER get access to the sprocket as it is hidden behind the plastic guard!
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:57 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I'd rather just see something like a light oil, or "varsol", or varsol type "paint thinner" (not sure of the British terminology) used for flushing the swarf.....as opposed to a volatile type solvent. Laquer thinner or equivalent (NOT alcohol) should be used to clean/prepare the block and oil pan surfaces for the RTV.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...5123830AAePBLp

I took the halfords surface cleaner back and got a refund based on what you said. I bought some jebsol 88 [like jizer but thinner].
http://www.debgroup.com/en/products/...swarfega-jizer.

Hope that works instead must rinse with water afterward!

OK?

Last edited by the_doc735; 05-17-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:27 AM   #205
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You won't have to worry about seeing the belt sprocket. But I will be interested in what the pulley is doing......so you'll be putting a mark on it (and the bolt/washer), when the time comes. What is the torque wrench that you have? Please ensure that you have no signs of cracking anywhere in the timing slot area of the camshafts. I think that you may have already done it, but please verify that the crankshaft timing pin is actually putting the piston at TDC. Remember that the crankshaft (particularly the crankshaft shoulder face that the sprocket contacts and the sprocket must be clean and dry).
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:14 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
The flywheel locking tool has to be solidly bolted to the clutch/tranny case and the tool tooth is slid in between two ring gear teeth as far as you can get it and then the bolt is tightened.......it should feel/will be solid. So you will need a couple of bolts that are threaded right down to just under the head, or bolts with more like the correct grip length.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I suspect that the correct pulley bolt torque procedure is actually the torque and turn method. The aftermarket pulley manufacturers "trick" is to "convert" it to a straight torque value. It would be a good idea if you can confirm the correct value/s. It has to be for your engine.....not an engine with a "keyed" sprocket/pulley. The 30 ft/lbs plus 90 degs. sounds reasonable, but I sure think that you should confirm it, if you can.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
When you torque a bolt to a torque value such as this, the bolt is in constant tension (which is supplying the large clamping force), because it is actually stretched a "few" thousands of an inch.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
If you haven't bought a torque wrench yet I would buy a "click" type, 1/2" drive, up to 200 (or 250) ft/lbs. "Reasonable" ones for the home mechanic aren't that expensive. You'll use it again anyway, and.....stored with the setting adjuster backed right off.
I have a small one and a bit larger one [=2].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I see your problem re the engine mount and engine support. I was going to have you "preinstall" the crankshaft sprocket and pulley and torque the bolt, but I've changed my mind (this should hopefully mean doing it in "one shot").
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I'd rather just see something like a light oil, or "varsol", or varsol type "paint thinner" (not sure of the British terminology) used for flushing the swarf.....as opposed to a volatile type solvent. But, either way, I'd apply engine oil to any bearings that may have been "flushed" with whatever solvent. Laquer thinner or equivalent (NOT alcohol) should be used to clean/prepare the block and oil pan surfaces for the RTV.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...5123830AAePBLp

I took the halfords surface cleaner back and got a refund based on what you said. I bought some jebsol 88 [like jizer but thinner].

http://www.debgroup.com/en/products/...swarfega-jizer

Hope that works instead must rinse with water afterward! ~ OK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Make sure you apply the bead line "inside" the line of bolt holes. Make sure that you initially just barely "snug up" the bolts at the block/pan splitline and then just snug the bolts at the oil pan tranny case split line just enough to bring those flanges together. Torque (if you can't find the torque value, then about 12 ft/lbs should be about right) the oil pan/block bolts first in two or three incruments (the opposite pairs) from the centre out to the ends, then the tranny housing ones last.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Next will be the pulley bolt torquing, belt installation etc. EDIT......It dawned on me (after checking my own 1/2" drive torque wrench that has a max. torque rating of 150 ft/lbs, that the minimum available is 25 ft/lbs) that because you may have to accomplish an initial bolt torque of 30 ft/lbs that you may have to obtain a torque wrench with a lesser max. torque limit than I recommended above. So you may find that 200 ft/lb or 250 ft/lb "click" type torque wrenches don't go down to 30 ft/lbs. They will all have only so much range, plus unfortunately at both the low end and the high end of the scale "click" type torque wrenches can sometimes be out of the tolerance specification, but be just fine more in the middle of the range (our tool repair/calibrator guy at work, mentioned this......and these were Proto and Snap-On). The mechs were supposed to select a wrench that would not have to be used at the Min. or Max. limit. So, you may find you'll end up with one with a max. torque capability/limit of only 150 ft/lbs. That'll work, I think no matter what. The final 90 deg. bolt rotation will be done with a socket and a flex/extension bar anyway.
I have a small torque wrench and a bit larger one [= 2 in total]. I also have the angular torque gauge for the final rotation. Not been used in ages though! Neither have they been stored in the correct position [i.e. both laid down]. Small one is a DRAPER TOOL, the larger one is un-branded goods.

Cheers.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:56 PM   #207
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Posted via FF MobileI`msure Grumpy will mention this, but I`ll chime in and say that any cleaner type product, especially one that needs water wash, is not a good choice for the cleaning planned. When I need to rinse out an internal area without full disassembly, my first choice is the fluid normally in that space,in this case engine oil used with a pump type can. If a lighteroil is needed, or more "spray", I like WD40 - as the propellant that doesn`t drip out or get wiped up evaporates, leaving a light lubricant behind . Then you could pump a bit of engine oil on the bearing edges to seep in and provide initial lube before oil pressure develops.You`ll be cranking this for oil flow B4 starting when the job is done, so it`s not too critical, just enough so it isn` dry like a cleaner could make it! Cheers!
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:56 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
You won't have to worry about seeing the belt sprocket.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
But I will be interested in what the pulley is doing......so you'll be putting a mark on it (and the bolt/washer), when the time comes.
OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
What is the torque wrench that you have?
oil filled/click [both] ...is that what you meant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Please ensure that you have no signs of cracking anywhere in the timing slot area of the camshafts. I think that you may have already done it,
...can't see any ...except 'the ears' ...that you already know about.

Quote:
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please verify that the crankshaft timing pin is actually putting the piston at TDC.
...well I can get the screwdriver [through spark plug hole 1] to its highest point and when that happens the crank is touching the timing pin and the counterweight for piston 1 is bottom dead centre ...any good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
Remember that the crankshaft (particularly the crankshaft shoulder face that the sprocket contacts and the sprocket must be clean and dry).
OK. [will do].

cheers!
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:27 PM   #209
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Posted via FF MobileI`msure Grumpy will mention this, but I`ll chime in and say that any cleaner type product, especially one that needs water wash, is not a good choice for the cleaning planned.
Oh shit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
When I need to rinse out an internal area without full disassembly, my first choice is the fluid normally in that space,in this case engine oil used with a pump type can.
...well he should have just said use 5/30W oil then!


Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
If a lighteroil is needed, or more "spray", I like WD40 - as the propellant that doesn`t drip out or get wiped up evaporates, leaving a light lubricant behind .
...well he should have just said use WD40 then!

Over the last couple of days or so I've been phoning and going to various shops about this issue - all have different ideas, opinions and suggestions as to how to deal with the sodding swarf, and my mind is reeling with conjecture. The water will evaporate [especially if I apply 'hair dryer' type heat to the general area] once the water has dried up I can then put a little oil on the bearings like you said before. What would be wrong with that? So I'm afraid I'm stuck with the "jebsol 88".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Then you could pump a bit of engine oil on the bearing edges to seep in and provide initial lube before oil pressure develops.You`ll be cranking this for oil flow B4 starting when the job is done, so it`s not too critical, just enough so it isn` dry like a cleaner could make it!
OK [will do]

cheers.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:27 PM   #210
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For pete's sake don't spend any more money on "flushing fluids".......the idea was to use something that could help flush/remove the swarf only. It seems to me that a spray WD40 (or the British equiv.) would work fine......but nothing that requires a water rinse. You're flushing, not cleaning. It's the torque range of the torque wrenches that you have that I'm interested in. The angular gauge could be useful, but marks on the bolt and pulley will work fine. The problem is going to be dealing with the fact that the pulley is going to want to rotate with the bolt causing the pulley to rotate the sprocket. The final checking of the crank to camshafts timing is easy......getting the actual timing bang on, is the trick. Unless you can find the exact Sigma engine procedure on a website or such, I'm pretty sure that the camshaft sprockets are doweled/keyed/splined to the camshafts, so I was not planning to disturb them.
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