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Old 10-08-2009, 05:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by WD40 View Post
MOVED to "Forced Induction Chat"
^^^Since I'm assuming, it's for this:
SPA turbo kit still in progress
IMO this should be in ECU tuning since Illinipo and myself are both NA.
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:27 PM   #12
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Are you talking being tuned N/A without J/S? If so it's perfectly safe.
Yep. \m/
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:57 PM   #13
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And no you cant hear it faster then the J&S can respond to it , you have to have knock to get a response from the J&S once it hears it its gone either that or you can think faster then the next time the piston can come to the top of the cyl and altho you are a smart guy your not that fast
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Originally Posted by illinipo View Post
I don't think Matt was trying to say he is faster at responding. What he was saying is he can hear knock before the J&S registers that there is knock. For instance, he can hear knock at say, 23 degrees, but the J&S wont pick it up until 24 degrees. Of course we wont be faster than electronics at responding to it, but at least in his case he could detect it before the electronics could.
Exactly. A few times I could hear distinct knock that the J&S totally missed (even on full sensitive). The J&S' electronic detection algorithms obviously respond much quicker than human ears, but human ears are still better at detection.

My 2centz

1. More power for race motors. If you want to run your car on a non-safe tune for max power, you can rely on the J&S to do individual cylinder retarding to keep your motor safe. Several race teams do this, but they rebuild their motors on a regular basis anyway.

2. Safety against bad gas. As everyone has pointed out, the J&S is nice insurance against bad gas... but it costs more than an SVT block from a junkyard! There is another angle to this one, too... Remember how John got a bad tank of gas and toasted his turbo'd SVTF running a safe tune and a J&S? If he had been using the listening method, he would have caught that bad gas on the way out of the parking lot.
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WD40 View Post
MOVED to "Forced Induction Chat"
^^^Since I'm assuming, it's for this:
SPA turbo kit still in progress
Quote:
Originally Posted by mellephants View Post
IMO this should be in ECU tuning since Illinipo and myself are both NA.
NA...cool.
Moved to the ECU tuning forum for ya then.
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Old 10-09-2009, 04:30 PM   #15
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you da man!
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Old 10-09-2009, 04:32 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mellephants View Post
Exactly. A few times I could hear distinct knock that the J&S totally missed (even on full sensitive). The J&S' electronic detection algorithms obviously respond much quicker than human ears, but human ears are still better at detection.
My 2centz .
Im sorry I dont buy that at all , AGAIN you are hearing what the knock sensor is hearing WHICH ISNT ALLWAYS KNOCK , you do realise that to low of timing also sounds like knock dont you , Its called inefficient combustion , the KS or what you are hearing does NOT break down TRUE knock from other noises this with my testing is what I am talking about , Yes I know you say that you can tell the diff but I have been tuning a long time and I at times wonder then when I take that a step further with changing the timing and see the results it tells me if it is or isnt knock and most of the time it has proven NOT to be actual knock and to take that a step further I have found slight knock .250 to .500 that you couldnt hear at all this is why I find this method still in need of a LOT of testing before the J&S is thrown to the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellephants View Post
1. More power for race motors. If you want to run your car on a non-safe tune for max power, you can rely on the J&S to do individual cylinder retarding to keep your motor safe. Several race teams do this, but they rebuild their motors on a regular basis anyway..
No , not at all , I dont tune for max power and short of a full all out race engine that you have a ton of money to blow should and wont tune in that form with or with out the J&S , I have tuned more FI Focus then any one with far less bad engines then anyone and thats from safety first HP/TQ second

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Originally Posted by mellephants View Post
2. Safety against bad gas. As everyone has pointed out, the J&S is nice insurance against bad gas... but it costs more than an SVT block from a junkyard! There is another angle to this one, too... Remember how John got a bad tank of gas and toasted his turbo'd SVTF running a safe tune and a J&S? If he had been using the listening method, he would have caught that bad gas on the way out of the parking lot.
And you brought up the down side to the "listening" Was John supose to have his raido on all the time to hear this ? So like all the way from NC to Ohio to listen for the knock why riding down the road every time he hit boost , Sounds like a fun road trip , A J&S does not cost more then a SVT engine , Block yes but a block with burned pistons because of no J&S in your SVT isnt going to make much power , Safety first

Then the J&S let you know how much knock is being pulled and if it is low stay in the throttle , The J&S pulls timing faster then you can hear it thats a FACT , by the time you hear knock the J&S would of already made the correction

Each needs to decide what works for them , Till things in the software change I wont tune a FI SVT with out a J&S installed , I think when you guys add boost you will find a whole new world with the KS

Tom
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Im sorry I dont buy that at all
That's fine with me.
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
this method still in need of a LOT of testing before the J&S is thrown to the wind
Agree. I never said to throw it to the wind, just saying that it is not required to tune your own Focus SVT if you know what you are doing. Further, I actually agree with you on the policy of requiring FI Focus SVT customers to use a J&S. It is a very good/smart/safe idea... and also allows you tune the cars much faster (which saves the customer money).
Quote:
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No , not at all , I dont tune for max power and short of a full all out race engine that you have a ton of money to blow should and wont tune in that form with or with out the J&S
Agree. Exactly my point.
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Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
And you brought up the down side to the "listening"
Yep, because I don't have a personal agenda. I'm just stating facts to help other people out.
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Was John supose to have his raido on all the time to hear this ? So like all the way from NC to Ohio to listen for the knock why riding down the road every time he hit boost , Sounds like a fun road trip
Nope. A quick listen after filling up the tank is all he'd have needed... so that'd be about 30 seconds every 4 hours or so. Even my wife can handle that, haha.
Quote:
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the J&S let you know how much knock is being pulled and if it is low stay in the throttle
That seems too risky to me, and also seems to contradict what you said earlier in that post: "short of a full all out race engine that you have a ton of money to blow should and wont tune in that form with or with out the J&S"
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Each needs to decide what works for them
Agree!
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I think when you guys add boost you will find a whole new world with the KS
Possible. We'll see.
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