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Old 10-07-2009, 01:44 PM   #1
boostedsvtf
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anyone out there tuned w/o a j&s

I know its not wise but I really don't wanna shell out over 500 bucks for it. anyone out there done it sucessfully.


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Old 10-07-2009, 01:57 PM   #2
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I know its not wise but I really don't wanna shell out over 500 bucks for it. anyone out there done it sucessfully.
Yes. but at lower boost & power levels with a consertvative tune.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:32 PM   #3
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sure, any dyno shop can do it for you.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:46 PM   #4
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I am tuning without any knock control (sensor turned off due to jibberish) and its going well, just have to keep tabs on it until I get the cold weather spark addition worked out.

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207523

A lot of people are skeptical about this but I assure you it is working great for me and the 4 other Focus owners that have tried it to my knowledge (including 1 SVT)
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:59 PM   #5
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Yeah, it's definitely doable seeing that some cars don't even have knock sensors. The thing I like about the J&S is I don't have to do anything...it does it all for me .
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:04 PM   #6
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The J&S doesn't quite do EVERYTHING for you. The J&S is better than nothing, but you can definitely hear knock before the J&S will detect it.

I'm the SVT owner/tuner illinipo mentioned. I started off using both a datalogged J&S and the "listening to the knock sensor" method, and wound up selling the J&S because I deemed it an unnecessary expense.

With that said, I still understand why guys like Tom insist their customers use a J&S. Datalogging knock is a necessity for remote tuning a boosted SVTF, and AFAIK the J&S is still the only way to do that.

Here's a thread about my tuning/datalogging setup... http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207339
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:02 PM   #7
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I've had my S/C tuned without since I've had it for nearly 60K miles although I have a pretty conservative tune. I know it's not technically the safest way of doing thing and if I had higher a boost application like 10psi+ with a turbo or Procharger I would def have one.

Are you talking being tuned N/A without J/S? If so it's perfectly safe.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:07 PM   #8
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Ill say it again, I have been playing with the J&S vs listening to it and have found some issues that are not the same car to car , I am not through playing with this method but do not at this time trust it enough to do boost with it just yet , Keep in mind that what you hear is AFTER the sensivity adjustment through the ECU that has proven to be incorrectly set on the SVT and if you have a ZX3 that the KS isnt working on then that alone tells you there is already issues with the readings the KS is sending the ECU and what your hearing , if the sensivity is wrong then what your hearing is wrong as well , to low of timing can be as bad as to much timing

There is other ways I am backing up is the timing I am taking out from what I hear +/- HP/TQ , I can remove timing from what I hear and I loose power and if you have knock and take out the right amount of timing there should be no power loss and there is

Im just saying this hasent fully been tested and from what I am seeing so far there is no way I would trust this over a J&S at this time , I feel the issue with the Focus is the sensivity adjustment (all 4 cyl have there own sensivity/gain setting) and most out there dont have the ability to adjust this setting , This setting needs to be correctly set before any readings ,logs , listening to should be done

And no you cant hear it faster then the J&S can respond to it , you have to have knock to get a response from the J&S once it hears it its gone either that or you can think faster then the next time the piston can come to the top of the cyl and altho you are a smart guy your not that fast , you would hear the same even if your KS was working properly , you have to have knock to activate the knock sensor

The BIG downfall to the listening for knock tuning is ? Are you going to ride around all day every day every tank of tuel every time you make boost to see if you have got bad gas , info from sensors that can cause knock at any time , and a large number of other things that will cause knock NO your not , BUT the J&S will do this for you , take out a safe amount of timing and let you know it is doing it SAFELY

I understand you dont have the funds for a 500.00 J&S , do you have 1500-2000 for a new engine ?

My o2

Tom
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Old 10-08-2009, 04:42 PM   #9
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Old 10-08-2009, 05:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Keep in mind that what you hear is AFTER the sensivity adjustment through the ECU that has proven to be incorrectly set on the SVT and if you have a ZX3 that the KS isnt working on then that alone tells you there is already issues with the readings the KS is sending the ECU and what your hearing , if the sensivity is wrong then what your hearing is wrong as well , to low of timing can be as bad as to much timing
The way I have it hooked up is before the ECU. I'm listening directly to the sensor before adjustments. So thats not correct at least in my case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
The BIG downfall to the listening for knock tuning is ? Are you going to ride around all day every day every tank of tuel every time you make boost to see if you have got bad gas , info from sensors that can cause knock at any time , and a large number of other things that will cause knock NO your not , BUT the J&S will do this for you , take out a safe amount of timing and let you know it is doing it SAFELY
Yes you do have to take a listen after every fill up to check for bad gas, but it takes me 3 seconds to push the aux button and turn up the volume on my stereo. I'm ok with that. Also it recently got colder so I had to check the ACT timing adder, and sure enough I had some very light knock so I just pulled the adder back a bit and now there is no knock at all... In MY SITUATION not necessarily everyone's, having to do these little things once in a while is a lot better and easier than dealing with an overactive knock sensor or having no knock sensor at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
And no you cant hear it faster then the J&S can respond to it , you have to have knock to get a response from the J&S once it hears it its gone either that or you can think faster then the next time the piston can come to the top of the cyl and altho you are a smart guy your not that fast , you would hear the same even if your KS was working properly , you have to have knock to activate the knock sensor
I don't think Matt was trying to say he is faster at responding. What he was saying is he can hear knock before the J&S registers that there is knock. For instance, he can hear knock at say, 23 degrees, but the J&S wont pick it up until 24 degrees. Of course we wont be faster than electronics at responding to it, but at least in his case he could detect it before the electronics could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
There is other ways I am backing up is the timing I am taking out from what I hear +/- HP/TQ , I can remove timing from what I hear and I loose power and if you have knock and take out the right amount of timing there should be no power loss and there is

The BIG downfall to the listening for knock tuning is ? Are you going to ride around all day every day every tank of tuel every time you make boost to see if you have got bad gas , info from sensors that can cause knock at any time , and a large number of other things that will cause knock NO your not , BUT the J&S will do this for you , take out a safe amount of timing and let you know it is doing it SAFELY
Yes there are downfalls to the listening method, I don't deny that. If you are willing to work with these downfalls then it works quite well. This method is not for everyone. I am using it because I have a mechanical issue that is causing my knock sensor to go crazy (lots of valve lash, and my buckets supplier has been less than prompt...) Personally I dont care about the HP/TQ changes, if my engine is knocking I will pull timing until it doesnt.



Overall, Tom makes a lot of good points here and like we have both said this method is not for everyone.
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