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Old 06-09-2009, 10:35 PM   #1
ehancock
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intake temps effect on timing

First, here's some back story. 03orangesvt recently brought up an interesting problem with the duratec focus and cold air intakes. There's a radiator hose that runs very close to the intake, heating the maf part of the intake and increasing air intake temps. The coswagon had air intake temps around 110*F at idle, 03orangesvt noted that at this point the ECU would probably be pulling timing.

I datalogged my car this evening, the car was warm from my ride home from work. i have a cosworth intake. At idle my temps were immediately at 100*F. After sitting for a minute they were at 105*F. When my radiator fans kicked on they jumped to 115*F almost immediately. Unfortunately i was unable to datalog any temps at cruising or at WOT. I understand these temps are much more important than at idle. I suspect the temps will be significantly lower. Either way, my intake felt very warm before and after driving tonight.

Now to my question. I understand that there are a lot of reasons why the ECU will pull timing. But at what temp will the ECU start to pull timing? Will i notice a couple degrees of pulled timing? Would it be worth it for me to wrap the intake and that hose?

I also logged cylinder head temps and coolant temps and i want to say the coolant was around 230-240, and the cylinder temps were a bit higher, is this normal?


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Old 06-10-2009, 08:13 AM   #2
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Timing is pulled not only based on inlet air temp but also coolant temp and cylinder head temps if so equipped with that sensor.

It can be a complicated calculation but the temperature is looked at to get a retard value, then a second table comprised of load and rpm gives a multiplier to that retard value.

The amount that is pulled varies by calibration (vehicle.) Will you notice it? Yes on a very hot day you will definitely.
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:21 AM   #3
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I know i need to get logs of crusing and WOT temps, because idle isn't going to really show me the big picture.

Should i really be worried about this? I mean, i know people have used these intakes on their duratecs forever "without issue", but this seems like something that needs to be remedied.

Do you know what "normal" coolant and cylinder head temps are on our cars? So when i log i'll know what im looking for.

Thanks for the info!
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:32 AM   #4
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If you are running any sort of tune the tables should already be modified to pull LESS timing than stock. I probably wouldn't be too worried about it especially given your location.

As for normal I am not sure but I would think it would be lower than what you wrote in your original post. Do you have a tune at all? Seeing temps over 200 for a short period of time would be fine but when stock the low speed fan kicks on somewhere around 210 which should bring the temps down.

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Originally Posted by ehancock View Post
I know i need to get logs of crusing and WOT temps, because idle isn't going to really show me the big picture.

Should i really be worried about this? I mean, i know people have used these intakes on their duratecs forever "without issue", but this seems like something that needs to be remedied.

Do you know what "normal" coolant and cylinder head temps are on our cars? So when i log i'll know what im looking for.

Thanks for the info!
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:05 AM   #5
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Yeah i do have a 93 octane tune from FocusSport. My mods are Cosworth intake, FC throttle body, Cosworth header/flex, and 2.5" borla exhaust. I didn't wrap the cosworth header, now i wish i had.

I did ask for early fan activation, but i don't know what temp Randy sets the fans to come on at. At what point should i be worried about coolant or head temps? One of my plans for the summer was flushing coolant and replacing the thermostat with a colder one, i'm sure that will help a bit right?

But if i understand it right, unless my intake temps are very hot, its not going to completely ruin the way my car drives. If i have hot ACTs along with high coolant and head temps, that's when i'll run into issues?
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:45 AM   #6
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I have almost the same setup
07 FS Exhaust, Tune, Cossie Intake.

What I found affects performance is mainly when aimbient air is >95F give or take a few.

At this temp the air density is alot thinner and your not getting as much into the cyliner and you will experiance loss of power and ALOT of bogging under hard acceleration.

That said I've done log's with cool summer nights, hot summer days, and long distance rides. The air intake temp is most affected by ambient and not the heat coming from the bay. These are just what I've seen in my experiance. You might be able to grab a few more HP by wrapping intake but you wont notice.

Turbo guys need an intercooler for air temp's because the air is geting super heated in the turbo and that affects the performance.
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:23 AM   #7
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I understand what hot air does to performance. I wanted to know at what temp the car pulls timing for my own knowledge. I probably should have explained better, i even got off track myself. Sorry.

My main problem is that there is a radiator hose that runs less than a finger width away from the MAF portion of my cosworth intake. The radiator hose is heating the intake and the intake itself feels VERY warm while idling or after driving. I know my intake temps shouldn't actually be 115*F at idle when ambient is 72*. I believe my REAL intake temps while idling or driving are significantly lower, and the hose is heating the MAF and reporting false temperatures. The false temperatures will effect performance because the car is going to be making calculations based on a 95* day when it's really 75*. Either that or the hose is actually physically heating the intake piping which is heating the intake charge and as a result i am getting higher ACT's. Both of which are bad and need fixing. My cold air intake should be getting me cold air, not hot air!

The reason why want to wrap the hose and the intake is to prevent the heating of the intake and prevent the resulting loss of power. I want my car to be reading REAL intake temps. I need to find out if those are real intake temps as a result of the entire intake being hotter, or if they are false reading as a result of the hot maf tube.

Thanks for the input so far
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Old 06-10-2009, 07:36 PM   #8
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Update!

I did some logs while cruising earlier today. At idle i still had extremely high temps. When i got moving they settled in around 83-85*F on normal roads. If i got jumbled up at stop lights the temps would jump to the mid 90's fairly quickly. On the freeway it settled at 79-82*F. The "assumed" ambient temperature stayed around 75-79*, the real ambient temperature was 70-72* here.
Are these temperatures acceptable?
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:33 PM   #9
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Yes those are very acceptable , when you come to a stop you get the air from the Raid and the fans blowing around 220 Deg air from off the fans , nothing can be done about this air , Moving you get cooler air coming in around the car and cools things down

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Old 06-10-2009, 09:59 PM   #10
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The instance that I pointed out was with a Duratec Wagon, one of the radiator hose was actually touching the MAF housing... and needless to say it (the MAF housing) was incredeblely hot to the touch.. absolutly hot enough to pull timing when driven.
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