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Old 03-19-2009, 08:40 AM   #21
mlbbaseball
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I'm not saying he shouldn't go into it right away, i'm saying he shouldn't do it till he is competant. in the mean time, just get out to the track and have fun. A panic'd driver who is inexperianced in Heal/toe shifting will mess up. in a corner where he doesn't take it right, his focus will be elsewhere. he needs to know heal/toe well enought that its second nature to him, similar to in an emergency, you need to hit the clutch and the brake to stop. once he doen't have to think about it, then he's good.
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlbbaseball View Post
well, you shouldn't just start heal toe driving. you should go to the track and drive in one gear too high. you will be slow until you can get teh track layout. Proper Heal Toe shifting takes a while. You need to practice it at low rpm b4 you go to the high rpm. you will prolly go through a few clutches b4 you get it perfect, and you may mess up ur synchros. first don't worry about keeping the car in gear. get the line down. then worry about keeping the car in gear.

O, and if you go into the turn while braking too hard, you will get oversteer, not understeer. The back end will rip around from behind you and ur off of the track.
I agree. I do not know which is worse for new drivers, the idea they need to learn heel & toe the first time on track or that they need to trail brake. Both are advanced techniques that should not be learned before actually understanding how to drive on track. Drivers who canít find an apex with a search warrant want to heel & toe and trail brake to go into corners faster??
If the driver is down shifting at the very end of the braking zone just before turn in, the engine rpm will be low enough that heel & toe is not necessary.
Far too many people downshift at the beginning of the braking zone then either pop the clutch immediately (yeah that's fun) or they keep the clutch depressed the entire time they are in the braking zone so the engine is at idle by the time they release it.
As for oversteer or understeer the main thing I instill, especially in a Focus driver, is to not get off the gas once it is applied in a turn. Lift throttle oversteer is not your friend.
How many posts have we seen on web forums of people complaining about a Focus rear end coming around on an on/off ramp as they were playing Speed Racer? The driver always runs into trouble when they get out of the throttle in the corner. Then they blame Ford for what they believe to be the carís poor handling instead of understanding the physics behind the issue.
I tell students to roll into the throttle to build up momentum instead of standing on the throttle. I usually ask my students if they have taken calculus and if they understand the concept of area under a curve. An evenly applied throttle will net more time "under the curve"; promote smoother driving and eventually a faster speed than getting on and off the throttle hard.
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:40 AM   #23
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we can tell you a million times, but it doesn't mean anything til you actually do it.

you have to just get out and try it at the track. maybe get someone that is a veteran to ride with you and teach you how to drive. that is a great way. listen to what other people at the track have to say.

talking about driving and driving are two very different things.
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Executionerhk View Post
i did look it up.
i don know when I do down shift, engine rmp will go up and match the tranny speed, which jurk the car.

so this is when heel toe come in.
but what rmp should I be in.
i know most cars power band is around 3 -4 k.
which mean if we are below 3k then will need to down shift, is that correct?
so if we do down shifting, is the true we only have to rev the car once?
or we have to make sure it is around 3-4k for the lower gear rpm?

what happen if I put the engine in higher rpm than it should?
will it just give you a litte tire spin? which may cause lost of traction right?
Quote:
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how do i handle over and under steer?
It is great you are asking questions but you are putting far too much emphasis on thinking about what to do before actually experiencing driving on a track.
Do not over think it, just go out and go to an event with instruction. Things will become much clearer.
On track you listen to what your butt, gut and hands are telling you, and then use the appropriate knowledge from the classroom and in car instructor to act on those inputs.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:17 PM   #25
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agreed^^, it took me about a year of doing it on the street b4 i was completely confident in doing it. start out at low rpms, then work ur way up. obviously practice in the parking lot and where there is no risk of an accident. Now, its completely second nature to me and i don't even think about it.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:34 PM   #26
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Do it Do it and Do.
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Once I have a chance LOL!!
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:36 PM   #27
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I dont always redline but I don't really race on windy roads. I like to keep it at the beginning of the power band so that's my style of gear choice
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:05 AM   #28
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Quote:
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mlbbaseball, i kinda disagree about heel-toe-ing later on. i feel that you should be competent at heel-toe before you even venture out onto the track. i agree that for the first few laps you should keep it a gear too high and learn the track layout. but after that, you would need to be shifting gears and every time to downshift, you should heel-toe it.
Absolutely wrong. Not one instructor will agree with you. Again, it's an advanced technique that you learn later on.

Quote:
"O, and if you go into the turn while braking too hard, you will get oversteer, not understeer. The back end will rip around from behind you and ur off of the track. "

yeah usually it causes oversteer. works kinda like lifting off the throttle. but sometimes it can cause understeer. this one time i was turning in too fast and riding the brakes too hard. this put way too much pressure into the front tyres and i started understeering before the back end had a chance to whip around. another time i tried brushing the brakes mid corner to get some oversteer but again i hit the brakes too hard and made the front slide out.
That is the friction circle.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:59 AM   #29
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totally agree every who says you just have to try it to figure it out. driving on the track is a complex task and you cannot be totally prepared for every situation. you will learn many things after a few laps. definately recommend having an experienced driver with you.

badidea, i dont think heel-toe is an advanced technique for later on. i feel its almost a pre-requisite for going to the track. trail braking, left foot braking, lift off oversteer etc are all advanced techniques that are not needed on the track, but done to further improve lap times as drivers progress. heel-toe however, is not something done for such purposes. on the track, you will be accellerating and braking hard and there will come a time when you need to downshift. downshift all day at 4000 rpm (without heel-toe-ing) and see how well your clutch (or the rest of the drivetrain) holds up. heel-toe is also a safe practice. downshifting mid-corner is not ideal but occasionally it does happen (especially when you are still learning). without heel-toe, the jump in rpm can be enough to lock up the front wheels, or at least cause a decent jolt, inducing understeer and cause you to spear off the track. an extreme example but it can happen. so my view is that heel toe is something that should be learnt and perfected (on a quiet back street away from traffic) before trying it on the track. expect a few months of practice before you can do it well.

when you get on the track, i wouldnt worry about shifting for the first couple of laps. just get a feel for the track. but when you start driving hard you would definately wanna be using heel-toe.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:58 PM   #30
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badidea, i dont think heel-toe is an advanced technique for later on. i feel its almost a pre-requisite for going to the track. trail braking, left foot braking, lift off oversteer etc are all advanced techniques that are not needed on the track, but done to further improve lap times as drivers progress. heel-toe however, is not something done for such purposes.
You are so wrong.
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