Sun Hyper Ground Kit Installed - Page 37 - Focus Fanatics
Ford Focus Forum
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace


Go Back   Focus Fanatics > Ford Focus Second Generation > DURATEC Performance (2008-2011)

DURATEC Performance (2008-2011) The place to chat about any Duratec 20 engine performance, tuning and exhaust related upgrades.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
Ford Focus Tire & Wheels FocusFanatics Merchandise

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2009, 11:22 AM   #361
kevin24018
Focus Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Fan#: 61767
Location: Roanoke Va
What I Drive: 08 vapor silver, coupe ses

Posts: 108
FF Reputation: 1 kevin24018 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (1)
I know very little about this sort of thing, i know how to get myself shocked with electricty but that's about it. Having followed this thread I'm wondering the following.....
could the size/quality/etc of the ground act as a restrictor in that particular part of the electrical system. I'm thinking kind of like a dimmer switch or anything that has variable speed. Certainly if the incoming electrical charge is a little low there is a little delay before it kicks in, compared to if you had more current. This I'm basising on power tools and things I have used. I may not be explaining it like I want but hopefully you can see what I'm asking. And of course with tools the quality makes a huge difference as it would in this case.

So will a larger ground and or more of them allow the current to get to the switch/component a little faster? Generally it shouldn't as you could run the whole system with no grounds but does anything think this could be a possible effect?
kevin24018 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-05-2009, 02:08 PM   #362
BradWhite
Head Hurt
 
BradWhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Fan#: 54975
Location: University Place, Wa, WA
What I Drive: 08 Sedan SE Vista Blue

Posts: 2,377
FF Reputation: 174 BradWhite Excellent Standing MemberBradWhite Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
You wernt harsh at all just opinionated and thats what this is all about , NO you havent proven anything , you have thoughts and opinions but thats it , you have offered no proof that it works other then what you think it does , I have dynos and electronic equipment that has shown that the TB DOES NOT open any faster with a added ground wire (already has one heck of a ground factory) So you you have PROOF other then your butt dyno I am more then willing to learn , I am not right all the time and will be the first to say that and willing to learn something new , I have tried this on a rental car in o8 and o9 and nothing anywhere , butt dyno , real dyno , or electronic equipment to shows voltage speed vs the foot sensor to TB sensor with and with out ground

If you think it helps then do it , other then that

Tom
Thanks Tom, I know we disagree on this one, but whatever 'eh it's just a disagreement, nothing more and I appreciate that.

Here's what I experience with and without the TB ground. Without the TB ground there will be occasions (and they are not all that frequent) when I press the accelator and the TB does not respond as soon as it should.

After adding the ground to the TB I have never experienced that again.

I "claim" to have proven this works because as I posted earlier I removed my own TB ground without my knowledge (anyone that did not read my post that began with an explanation of my short term memory issues will have to go back to understand that statement).

Tom, As soon as I started driving the car without the TB ground I knew that something had changed in the way it was responding. And once I figured out my mistake and replaced the TB ground I got back the responsiveness I'd grown so fond of.

Hope that helps explain that I'm not claiming anything "responds" faster, it just makes things respond dependably.

Brad
__________________
Best wishes and keep on modding April 2009 SOTM, July 2009 ROTM, 2009 FF ROTY

RIFF CREW, Sedan Revolution #137, TEAM Duratec #181, Bremerton Raceway #658, NW POSSE #6
BradWhite is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 09:22 PM   #363
1turbofocus
FF Affiliate
 
1turbofocus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Fan#: 1123
Location: Belmont, NC
What I Drive: 2000 ZX3 / 2002 SVT Turbocharged

Posts: 21,626
FF Reputation: 153 1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member1turbofocus Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (28)
Ok let me ask this , What do you think the ground is doing if not allowing the TB (throttle plate) to respond faster ?

Tom
__________________
Focus-Power: Your #1 Source for Ford Focus Speed, Tuning & Performance!

Customer Support
AIM: hpdyno
Email: hpdyno@aol.com
Phone: 704-249-3745
Site: focus-power.com

Elder 1turbofocus
1turbofocus is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 09:29 PM   #364
warneej
BodyKits=PantiesDrop
 
warneej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Fan#: 20372
Location: Bradenton, FL
What I Drive: 04 ZX3 D23E-10SES Sedan-12 Ti Hatch

Posts: 13,167
FF Reputation: 200 warneej Excellent Standing Memberwarneej Excellent Standing Memberwarneej Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (12)
Personally I feel the ground shortens the time between when you depress the pedal and when the throttle plate opens.

The plate itself doesn't move and faster, its the reaction time he is referring to.

I do not own a FBW car and am purely a spectator here, this is what I have gathered and it seems that this is what Brad is referring to and Tom is not understanding.

Please stop insulting Tom or others because beyond all that there is excellent info to be gleaned from this thread.
__________________
Disciple of the "Push harder, suck less" school of autocross.

173.4whp
gump
crew #6
warneej is online now  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 09:57 PM   #365
ZXthrizzle05
TURBO ZX3
 
ZXthrizzle05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Fan#: 24434
Location: Marysville, WA
What I Drive: 2007 mazda 3 I sport, TURBO ZX3

Posts: 8,360
FF Reputation: 6 ZXthrizzle05 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (11)
this is by far the most ive seen tom post in before,and brad wow your so noble! hey brad not to hijack the thread or anything but i picked up the fenders today, they look awesome, would this little ground kit work on my throttle body so you can have another supporter brad.
__________________
FF MODERATOR
RISE AGAIN EGGYOLK130 WHP 124 WTQ ZETEC CREW #271
RIFF CREW
TURBO DYNO COMING SOON
ZXthrizzle05 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 10:01 PM   #366
focusboy5
Focus Fanatic
 
focusboy5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Fan#: 50002
Location: Wichita, Kansas, United States
What I Drive: Four Wheels

Posts: 2,859
FF Reputation: 31 focusboy5 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (13)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXthrizzle05 View Post
this is by far the most ive seen tom post in before,and brad wow your so noble! hey brad not to hijack the thread or anything but i picked up the fenders today, they look awesome, would this little ground kit work on my throttle body so you can have another supporter brad.
This mod will only work(debating wether it works or not) on fly by wire equipped cars. Those foci would be the 2008 and up. It says you drive a 2001, so your TB is cable operated, not electronically. But you can do it if it makes you feel better.
focusboy5 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 10:04 PM   #367
ZXthrizzle05
TURBO ZX3
 
ZXthrizzle05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Fan#: 24434
Location: Marysville, WA
What I Drive: 2007 mazda 3 I sport, TURBO ZX3

Posts: 8,360
FF Reputation: 6 ZXthrizzle05 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (11)
lol just a total brain fart i just ported my throttle body so i shoulda known its cable operated
__________________
FF MODERATOR
RISE AGAIN EGGYOLK130 WHP 124 WTQ ZETEC CREW #271
RIFF CREW
TURBO DYNO COMING SOON
ZXthrizzle05 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 12:21 AM   #368
BradWhite
Head Hurt
 
BradWhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Fan#: 54975
Location: University Place, Wa, WA
What I Drive: 08 Sedan SE Vista Blue

Posts: 2,377
FF Reputation: 174 BradWhite Excellent Standing MemberBradWhite Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Ok let me ask this , What do you think the ground is doing if not allowing the TB (throttle plate) to respond faster ?

Tom
Synopsis: To avoid reading this whole post - the bottom line is that I believe the ground wire(s) helps the communications network.

The following is from Motorcraft Technical Resource SECTION 418-00: Module Communications Network;

"Principles of Operation

NOTE: The smart junction box (SJB) is also known as the generic electronic module (GEM).

Vehicle communication utilizes both medium and high speed controller area network (CAN) communications. CAN is a method for transferring data among distributed electronic modules via a serial data bus.

The vehicle is equipped with 2 module communication networks:

High speed (HS) CAN
Medium speed (MS) CAN

HS-CAN and MS-CAN

CAN is a communication network that uses an unshielded twisted pair cable of data (+) and data (-) circuits. The data (+) and the data (-) circuits are each regulated to approximately 2.5 volts during neutral or rested network traffic. As bus messages are sent on the data (+) circuit, voltage is increased by approximately 1.0 volt. Inversely, the data (-) circuit is reduced by approximately 1.0 volt when a bus message is sent. Multiple bus messages can be sent over the network CAN circuits allowing multiple modules to communicate with each other.

The MS-CAN operates at a maximum data transfer speed of 125 Kbps for bus messages and is designed for general information transfer. The HS-CAN operates at a maximum data transfer speed of 500 Kbps and is designed for real time information transfer and control.

Certain network faults may cause inconsistent message communication."

There is of course a ton more information regarding the CANs, the protocol in use, the error correction method, the serial bus, the serial transmission method, etc...

The last line above says it all for me; "Certain network faults may cause inconsistent message communication". Inconsistent message communication sounds like a very plausible explanation to me as to why I would jerk or almost stall my car on random occasions. And again, with the additional ground wire(s) in place I have never again, not once, experienced any lag between pressing the accelerator and the engine responding.

What happens when you press the accelerator? Well prior to 08' that was an easy answer as there was a wire cable directly connected.

In my car, (most of this is cut/paste from motorcraft) when I press the accelerator the Accelerator Pedal Position (APP) Sensor sends a signal to the PCM. The PCM then determines if the signal is correct by calculating where it should be, inferred from the other signals. For simplicity let's say the signal is correct. Next the pedal position signal is converted to pedal travel degrees (rotary angle) by the PCM. The software then converts these degrees to counts, which is the input to the torque based strategy.

The torque based ETC strategy was developed to improve fuel economy and to accommodate variable camshaft timing (VCT). This is possible by not coupling the throttle angle to the driver pedal position. Uncoupling the throttle angle (produce engine torque) from the pedal position (driver demand) allows the powertrain control strategy to optimize fuel control and transmission shift schedules while delivering the requested wheel torque.

The ETC monitor system is distributed across 2 processors within the PCM: the main powertrain control processor unit (CPU) and a separate monitoring processor. The primary monitoring function is carried out by the independent plausibility check (IPC) software, which resides on the main processor. It is responsible for determining the driver-demanded torque and comparing it to an estimate of the actual torque delivered. If the generated torque exceeds driver demand by a specified amount, appropriate corrective action is taken"

I'm not sure but I think somewhere in there a signal has now been sent to my ETB (electronic throttle body) telling it to open the required amount to correspond to my foot pressure on the accelerator peddle.

And what about the ETB;

(Motorcraft again)

Electronic Throttle Body (ETB) Throttle Position Sensor

The ETB throttle position sensor has 2 signal circuits in the sensor for redundancy. The redundant ETB throttle position signals are required for increased monitoring. The first ETB throttle position sensor signal (TP1) has a negative slope (increasing angle, decreasing voltage) and the second signal (TP2) has a positive slope (increasing angle, increasing voltage). The 2 ETB throttle position sensor signals make sure the PCM receives a correct input even if 1 signal has a concern. There is 1 reference voltage circuit and 1 signal return circuit for the sensor. The reference voltage circuit and the signal return circuit is shared with the reference voltage circuits and signal return circuits used by the APP sensor."

The next time someone complains to me about having to replace their throttle cable I'm going to .
__________________
Best wishes and keep on modding April 2009 SOTM, July 2009 ROTM, 2009 FF ROTY

RIFF CREW, Sedan Revolution #137, TEAM Duratec #181, Bremerton Raceway #658, NW POSSE #6
BradWhite is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 01:48 AM   #369
MustangsandFocus'
Focus Enthusiast
 
MustangsandFocus''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Fan#: 58968
Location: Ft Lewis, WA
What I Drive: 08 Vermillion Red SES Loaded

Posts: 105
FF Reputation: 34 MustangsandFocus' Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Ok let me ask this , What do you think the ground is doing if not allowing the TB (throttle plate) to respond faster ?

Tom
As brad said directly from motorcraft "The reference voltage circuit and the signal return circuit is shared with the reference voltage circuits and signal return circuits used by the APP sensor." HMMMMM....in short they share the same wire....HMMMMM......that means that a motor and a sensor share the same wiring.....HMMMM.....so this means that the interference from the motor gets looped directly back to the ecm......HMMMM......THIS BEING BECAUSE THERE IS NO CHASSIS GROUND FOR THE THROTTLE BODY TO DISCHARGE THE ERRANT VOLTAGE.
__________________
Josh is the name performance is my game. Hit me up if you need any technical info. And the best Part...I'm Experienced. JB

Last edited by WD40; 03-06-2009 at 12:10 PM.
MustangsandFocus' is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 08:56 AM   #370
age
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Fan#: 57330
Location: sydney
What I Drive: 2004 red zx3

Posts: 143
FF Reputation: 1 age Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
3-15hp gain!?!?!?! ANY HP GAIN?!?!?! get outa town. this may or may not help throttle response, but power??? there must be more air getting in or more going out or more compression or anything and there is no way a ground wire can do that. not even a little bit. however, this is but my mere opinion.

to test this ground wire, i have devised a kickass idea. get 2 stock foci and get a few ppl to drive them both to make sure the cars feel the same to begin with. then brad or or a NASA electronic engineer can ground one of them as well as they see fit (use 17 lengths of 1 gauge 24 carat gold cable if need be). the drivers (the more the better) will then go for a test drive to see if there is a noticeable difference between the 2. they should record results without talking to the ther drivers.

this would work best if the drivers were either UNBIASED or BELIEVERS of the ground. allow me to explain. unbiased ppl are fine. those who believe in the ground are also good because they will need to be able to pick the right car. if there is no actual difference, there wont be a consistant answer. those who are set against the ground will just say "no theres no difference" (even if there is), defeating the purpose of the experiment. i feel tom should also be there (i always like to see a good fight :P). no really, it would be good to see if tom sees a difference. and if he is ready to admit it IF there is one.
age is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Ground Kit Problem RedZx3 ZETEC Performance (2000-2004) 11 07-06-2008 02:07 PM
installed ground wire kit... Spec3VR6 SVT Performance (2002-2004) 8 06-15-2008 11:29 PM
Installed my new dash kit tonight--what do you think? Campbell1971 MK1 Interior Mods & Upgrades 19 05-27-2007 06:28 PM
ground clearance on kaminari lip kit greddyct MK1 Focus 4 11-09-2005 09:07 PM
LiteGlow 7 Color LED underbody kit installed Seashrimp MK1 Focus 4 07-13-2004 10:51 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:07 AM.


Copyright 2002-2014 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : Terms of Use : Privacy Policy : Advertise Information : Site Map

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Acura TLX or Fiesta ST. You can find all Ford Focus and Focus ST related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area.