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Old 08-03-2007, 05:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illinipo View Post
Why is that? Basically the way I see it, what happens is you slowly wear away material, so the distribution of mass changes and therefore the pieces (particularly the crank at the bearing locations) arent balanced anymore. Please enlighten me about how changing the distribution of mass doesnt change the harmonics of a rotating assembly, that's a direct calculation right there.

And we all know that a lot of us dont put just everyday wear on the motor, many of us (especially the ones who get a udp) like to get on it a lot.

PS, thanks for getting technical, it's nice to have a worthy conversation around here that isnt based solely on opinion for once.
Your confusing Harmonic balancing with engine balancing again. I have not seen any testing directly related to having more harmonics from engine wear but I do know that the wear of the engine has no effect on engines balance NOT HARMONIC BALANCE This I have tested

My opinion is that you would gain little harmonics through out the rotating mass from wear

Tom
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:21 PM   #32
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alrighty. Yeah, I was getting them confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Your kidding right? Just how much carbon build up would it take to go from 175/180 to a compression of 185/190 cranking compression?

It isnt carbon build up that is causing you compression to very by that much. Why would you post things like that ? Do you not realise that people read this and might beleive that

Tom
So what does cause it then? lol prolly not harmonics
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by illinipo View Post
Does anyone know whether top-caliber sports car race teams (LeMans series, Grand-am, etc...) run a damper on their crank pulley? Because their engines damn well better be balanced internally, and if they run one I sure would want to run one as well.

The proof is in the pudding, I want pics not opinions.
Your doing it again , Dont confuse Harmonic Balancer with how the engine is balanced , there 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS

I can tell you that Nascar , Bush , Blown Alcohol Hydros , Late model dirt and asphault, Trans -Am , and hundreds of other teams ALL use a SFI approved "Harmonic Balancer" Most are liquid filled so that the out ring cannot come off and hurt some one and they make them in both internal and external form

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Old 08-03-2007, 05:28 PM   #34
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Okay, I just realized (took a while ) that this link in my mind between harmonic and internal balancing came from the original statement "Zetec motors are INTERNALLY ZERO balanced, meaning the factory pulley IS NOT a harmonic dampener of any kind."

So yeah, I did it again...sorry! It's now clear that they are two different things. Just had to jog my memory, that class I took was about a year ago.
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illinipo View Post
alrighty.
So what does cause it then? lol prolly not harmonics
Any number of things
Valves in one not seating as good as the others
Rings worn more in one then another Cyl
Cyl work more in one then another
How many time the engine was spun

A leak down test would show you part of the issues causing the Diff. But it isnt carbon cause that big a Diff


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Old 08-03-2007, 05:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illinipo View Post
Okay, I just realized (took a while ) that this link in my mind between harmonic and internal balancing came from the original statement "Zetec motors are INTERNALLY ZERO balanced, meaning the factory pulley IS NOT a harmonic dampener of any kind."

So yeah, I did it again...sorry! It's now clear that they are two different things. Just had to jog my memory, that class I took was about a year ago.
Its all good , that is a BIG misunderstanding when it comes to debates about the Zetec and what the Assy drive pully/Harmonic Balancer does and its where Massive is confused about it all as well

Tom
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K Dog View Post
The stock pulley is NOT A DAMPNER. ITs a BIG chunk of iron that would other wise ADD undesirable harmonics to the motor if is was not

b. bushed with rubber

Your contradicting your self . you stated that "The stock pulley is NOT A DAMPNER" Then say "ITs a BIG chunk of iron that would other wise ADD undesirable harmonics to the motor if is was not
b. bushed with rubber

Exactly the Rubber Dampens the harmonics, Whers the rubber in your Harmonic Dampener?

Tom
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:39 PM   #38
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Dynamic balance:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dynamic+balance

So, basically when the sum of the forces pointing toward the axis of rotation due to the rotation are zero at the shaft's axis.


Harmonic balance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmoni...nic_oscillator

So there is a driving frequency (RPM) at which the driving (pistons) and restoring (accessories and transmission) forces are maximum. When the two forces get out of phase, you have a major harmonic vibration in the thing youre driving (crankshaft).
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:42 PM   #39
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This is an interesting, long read.
The following is An excerpt from one of the many companies that manufacture UDP's. Just happens to be about this same topic.



"People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better."

"Urban myths have been floating around about Honda oil pumps failing by using an Unorthodox Racing crank pulley/s. The real fact is that these OEM pumps have been failing with AND WITHOUT the use of our pulleys and before our crank pulley/s were available on the market. Also note that these failures are few and far in between.

The Acura/Honda oil pumps are excellent units, but there are a number of reasons for the failures that do occur.

Most of the oil pump failures have been in Acura/Honda B series 1.6/1.8L applications. The Mazda 1.6/1.8L applications have seen a few failures, as well as the new Ford Focus ZETEC in race vehicles. Again, note that on all these applications the oil pump failures have occurred on engines not using our pulley, using the stock crank pulley.

These pump failures can be linked to the following causes. These causes may act individually or in combination to cause the actual failures:

* The gears used in many pumps including those in the Honda B series engines and Mazda Miata engines are of a low-cost powdered metal composition. The factory uses this metal because of its acceptable cost-to-strength ratio. The problem is, these parts are not always deburred properly from the factory and when pushed to their limits can and do fail.
* Many times additional stress is added to the oil pump by using oil thicker than what is specified by the manufacturer. The oil pump and bearing clearances were not designed from the factory to push oil of higher viscosities. This extra stress on the gears, combined with the above mentioned poor deburring process, can attribute to oil pump failure or engine failure.
* Another contributing factor to oil pump failures is the weak cast backing plate of the B16/B18 oil pumps. Simple inspection shows that when compared to an H22 oil pump, a screw is not present in a critical location of the plate in the B series pumps. Compound this with the use of a higher viscosity motor oil and poorly deburred pump components and you have the ingredients for an oil pump failure.
* This issue, specific to the Mazda 1.6/1.8L engines, involves the flex of the crankshaft and the lower half of the engine due to the additional stress of a forced induction system (such as a turbo or supercharger). The additional stress produced by forced induction causes flexing of both the block and the crankshaft between the front main bearing and the oil pump. This can also contribute to oil pump failure. Early Miatas were notorious for having crankshaft problems and later models suffered from problems as power is increased significantly.
* Lastly, any failure inside a motor, related to aging components or a poor engine rebuild, can cause the oil pump to fail. ANY particles passing through an oil pump design such as that used in the Honda B series engines will cause damage or failure.

Remember that oil pump failures happen regularly on engines using a factory crank pulley. To help combat these failures, a few steps should be taken to help prolong the life of your oil pump and engine:

* Unless building a race motor with race clearances in mind, you should always use an oil viscosity matching, or as close to the factory recommendations as possible.
* If using a factory oil pump, always have your oil pump components deburred properly. It is recommended you have a competent engine rebuilder handle this.
* For those who run dedicated / extreme race vehicles we recommend using an external wet or dry sump oiling system. These systems are designed for the heavy abuse a race engine receives on the track. Remember, the stock oiling systems were designed for factory horsepower levels and can only handle a certain amount of power increase over that level.
* Lastly and most obvious, have a competent, trusted machine or performance shop rebuild your precious motor. It only takes one simple mistake to turn a costly engine rebuild into a doorstop.

If you have any other questions about this subject please don't hesitate to give us a call or drop us an e-mail. We take great pride in the craftsmanship of our products and are constantly striving to provide the highest quality products available to you, our customers."

"
"Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"

This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels."


I'll try dig up more.
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1turbofocus View Post
Your contradicting your self . you stated that "The stock pulley is NOT A DAMPNER" Then say "ITs a BIG chunk of iron that would other wise ADD undesirable harmonics to the motor if is was not
b. bushed with rubber

Exactly the Rubber Dampens the harmonics, Whers the rubber in your Harmonic Dampener?

Tom
The rubber dampens the load from the accessories to eliminate NHV from the passenger compartment. The pulley is not a dampner as it has no effects on internal engine balance.

It's just there in an attempt to make the little 4 cylinder comuter car more cushy and smooth for the driver.
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