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Anyone tried E85 yet?

57K views 162 replies 33 participants last post by  sailor 
#1 ·
Just wondering if the pump(s) and injectors have enough capacity.

I don't want to hear that it sucks or doesn't work. I know it does, I DD with it every day. I'm just wondering if any of the tuners who are working with the ST have done it.

Thanks.
 
#40 ·
Corrosion: because the alcohol in ethanol corrodes aluminum, FFV components are made of stainless steel and E85 pumps must be modified or manufactured with stainless steel to prevent corrosion. Repeated exposure to E85 also corrodes the metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline.
Cold starts: because E85 has a higher freezing temperature than gasoline, there may be cold start problems in severe cold weather. For that reason, ethanol content is lowered to a minimum of 70 percent ethanol in freezing weather conditions.
Limited to light vehicles: due to its physical properties, ethanol is generally limited to gasoline blends for passenger vehicles and light trucks, while heavy-duty vehicles are diesel-fueled. Current researchers are experimenting with E-diesel, a blend of fuel ethanol and petroleum diesel.

Environmental Concerns
Growing corn requires a significant amount of water, fertilizer and pesticides, which can have a negative impact on the environment. On average, farmers use about 134 pounds of nitrogen fertilizer per acre of corn each year. Some potential cellulosic energy crops can be drought-tolerant and use less water than corn. Ethanol is biodegradable, so accidental spills pose few risks to the environment.
Food Versus Fuel
There is a growing "food versus fuel" debate as the cost for corn spirals upward due to high demand. High corn prices are good for farmers, but bad for livestock producers and consumers, because so many products are made from corn. Texas has a large livestock industry, and high feed prices affect it. This debate has generated increased interest in cellulosic ethanol.

Link to where the above came from and I could get hundreds more , for the engineer in here , you should know all this already and not calling the guy on so I though I would post some proof http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol.htm

Now to more e85 facts
Higher RON in the fuel blend would enable greater thermal efficiency in future engines through higher compression ratio (CR) and/or more aggressive turbocharging and downsizing, and in current engines on the road today through more aggressive spark timing under some driving conditions.

Using a linear molar octane blending model they had developed earlier to quantify RON potential from ethanol and blendstock, the team estimated that an increase of 4-7 points in RON are possible by blending in an additional 10–20%v ethanol above the 10% already present. Keeping the blendstock RON at 88 (which provides E10 with ∼92.5 RON), they estimated RON would be increased to 94.3 for E15 to as much as 98.6 for E30. Further RON increases may be achievable assuming changes to the blendstock RON and/or hydrocarbon composition, they suggested.

An increase in blendstock RON from 88 to 92 would increase the RON of E10 from 92.5 to 95.6, and would provide higher RON with additional ethanol content (e.g., RON of 97.1 for E15 to 100.6 for E30).

Under scenarios considered in the paper, the team estimated CR increases to be on the order of 1–3 CR-units for port fuel injection engines as well as for direct injection engines in which the greater evaporative cooling of ethanol can be fully utilized

From :http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/04/jea-20120406.html

No manufacture of "E" fuels will tell what octane there blending with so you can figure what fuel your using , now some states are running 85 octane fuels regularly (http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/8858/octane-whats-in-your-fuel), and why they are not required to post octanes on the pumps for E85 , what makes people think there not using 78 octane to make e85 , or 72 , the lower the octane blended the cheaper to make octane fuel

The key word is the "blendstock" they wont even call it fuel any more there mixing and even stat that the "blendstock" / fuel octanes are/could be lower or higher which changes the outcome of the loosely use octane of the final product

It amazes me that people using it or educated people claiming to know a lot about it still feel its the higher octane that adds the benefits why its the greater evaporative cooling of ethanol as by cooling the charge lowers the chance of knock to the point of low quality "blendstock" is used and you get a lower octane fuel substitute

vance I 100% agree with you on your thoughts , most of your statments are spot on and I though I would post facts to back up your post and where they can read them

I have tuned many many "E" cars over the years , I have seen first hand cars go out with 100% 0 knock and come back with another tank and have 3-5 deg of knock using the knock sensors , it is an unregulated fuel and until its regulated they will use junk fuel to make it and that's not even taking into account the amount of water "E" fuels get into them , how the "E" fuel have to be belended just before shipping as the octane drops over time fast and I could go one and on but you will still get the guys that think its a "higher octane race fuel" LOL

The above link , which is a joke read and means nothing for "E85" testing talks about E100 and 91-93 octane fuels which was also paid for my Ford and AVL which are paid by the oil companys , give me E100 at the pumps and I will run it ALL DAY LONG , E100 is a regulated fuel and controlled by big brother just like 93 octane is , E85 is unregulated do the math and see where you would be if the "blendstock" was 85 or 78 or 72 , yep now your getting it

Tom
 
#41 ·
Tom, you and I have had our bats in the past but I could not agree with you more on this one.

I have first hand seen PLENTY of vehicle damage brought on by simple E10, which commonly goes as high as E20 here because they slip in more and more to make you buy more product when the mileage drops. The Ford dealers here in Texas test for fuel percentage now, if car has more than 10% they deny warranty repair and make owner pay for it on non flexfuel cars. Of course factory was forced to upgrade cars because of it, much less E85. The last fuel pump I changed was totally corroded, crumblies coming out of it, saying it doesn't hurt parts is ludicrous. I saw plenty more just like it at the store where I sold many more fuel system parts than in the past before E10. I can watch a quantity of fuel phase separate to become garbage in five minutes outside on a humid day, water appears in it where none was before. Not what I would call a stable fuel at all.

Engineers spouting off all day long mean nothing next to empirical evidence right in front of your eyes.

I printed financials of the ethanol industry for several years, if the government ever drops the subsidy for it, it will disappear overnight since no one will want to pay the true $6 or so a gallon it costs to make. They were terrified of that.

Clearly some here were not watching news of increasing corn prices this last two years simply due to ethanol production cutting into food. Look at the price of your corn flakes folks, it's right there in front of you.

News story from 'climate engineers' this very morning about ethanol use increasing the greenhouse effect more than classic fuels did since much higher percentages used. They claimed carbon emissions were higher.

I like high performance as well as the next guy but the penalties paid for this stuff are simply too high...........there are many more things to 'quality of life' than simple pleasure felt at putting one's foot into the firewall. I happen to like my corn flakes...............
 
#42 ·
I had a friend with an SRT4 pick up 75 WHP on the same boost levels by switching to E85. You can't tell me it doesn't work. Sure it has reduced fuel efficiency, sure it takes a lot of corn to make, sure. I couldn't care less about those points in a discussion about PERFORMANCE. I don't care about the politics behind it especially, because that has nothing to do with the performance of E85. I have personally seen its effectiveness, so I'll continue to support it and use it in some applications until something better comes along.
 
#43 ·
Why some, why not all applications ?

Show me one manufacture of E85 that advertises it as a performance fuel , one oil company ?? why is there no octane rating on the pumps , Why do they not test for water absorption , why is the fuels blended just before shipment , why is it the ONLY unregulated fuel or ethanol allowed by big brother , Do these questions not bother you or are you just going to go by what your friends car did sitting on a dyno and stand with that ??? ANSWER because it would NOT meet any minimum standards set or inforced by big brother , not the octane , not the moisture content , not minimum fuel standards etc etc

Everyone that wants to run this fuel please do so ,I am not trying to stop any one from using it . What I do want to do is stop the abortion (arrest of development (as of a part or process) resulting in imperfection) of people killing their engines , fuel pumps , fuel lines etc etc etc from reading post / forums of my friends dads daughters boyfriend used it and made 50 more hp by just adding e85 because they are not fully informed

To the guys that think its a wonder fuel and you like it and want to use it please do so

Tom
 
#45 ·
Why some, why not all applications ?

Show me one manufacture of E85 that advertises it as a performance fuel , one oil company ?? why is there no octane rating on the pumps , Why do they not test for water absorption , why is the fuels blended just before shipment , why is it the ONLY unregulated fuel or ethanol allowed by big brother , Do these questions not bother you or are you just going to go by what your friends car did sitting on a dyno and stand with that ??? ANSWER because it would NOT meet any minimum standards set or inforced by big brother , not the octane , not the moisture content , not minimum fuel standards etc etc

Everyone that wants to run this fuel please do so ,I am not trying to stop any one from using it . What I do want to do is stop the abortion (arrest of development (as of a part or process) resulting in imperfection) of people killing there engines , fuel pumps , fuel lines etc etc etc from reading post / forums of my friends dads daughters boyfriend used it and made 50 more hp by just adding e85 because they are not fully informed

To the guys that think its a wonder fuel and you like it and want to use it please do so

Tom
I never said it was marketed as a performance fuel, did I? The questions bother me a tiny bit, but not enough to religiously bash a fuel based on theoretical numbers alone vs actual real world testing and experience.

You don't kill engines, fuel pumps, fuel lines, etc if the car is set up for E85. I'm not promoting just throwing E85 in a car and tuning for it, I'm promoting its use on properly setup systems. I have multiple friends using it and it's not only dyno numbers that back up it's performance gains.

I appreciate your opinions and insight into the matter, I'm not trying to dismiss anything you say because you make some valid points and I appreciate the input. But I have yet to see first hand of anyone killing any major components just from running E85.
 
#46 ·
I am here to say I have seen dozens of well tuned blown e85 engines , I have had in my hands fuel pumps that looked like they sat in water or a corrosive for years but had only seen e fuel for less then a year , I have seen it eat through rubber hoses not ment for e fuels
I have tuned with this fuel , I have seen the customer return with in 2 weeks and retest and have as much as -5 deg knock on his knock sensor because the e85 he bought the first time was a better quality then what he now had in the car , I have seen pistons burned with holes because of spark knock and know the timing was to the safe side

This isnt myth I have seen it and I feel I am a above avg tuner and tested with my own dynojet to test on , I am not here as some guy that has been told or my friends are doing it , I did it , I saw it , I have tested it

Tom
 
#47 ·
Sounds like below average tuning skills using it in the wrong applications to me.

What cars and what mods?

If you are talking n/a and/or older cars with rubber lines, etc., then I see why you are having trouble.

I've seen people blown their motors on every type of fuel. That's the life when you are modding your car.
 
#48 ·
I wish I had e85 to play with when I had my Civic running. Made this li'l piece of art 15 minutes after installation completion, during street tuning on 11 psi. Granted, this was a standalone ECU, but with a base map, stock bottom end with hypereutectic pistons, and not enough safety built into the starting map.

Oopsie. Hindsight is 20/20 AMIRITE?

The forged bottom end got a professional dyno tune and did MUCH better. ;)

 
#50 ·
Not to be a fanboy or anything but Tom's knowledge, advice and wisdom is priceless. I've been lurking the forums for about 5 years and Tom has always been around to help. You can't buy better info than Tom provides for free. I can't say I've ever seen him stand behind any of his opinions without significant backing data or experience. Personally, I feel fortunate that we have his expertise to draw on. I for one do not feel safe using E85 after reading the facts and peoples' experiences. Why risk it, especially for what seem to be negligible gains for the money invested. I also might add that his FF reputation is well earned. You might stand to gain something by listening to an expert.
 
#53 ·
I do the later stuff and most of the testing was done on the later EFI cars I have been doing the later FEI and direct injection as well , I like the old school stuff from when I first was learning (mid 90`s) EFI tuning no means am I just tuning older stuff

Hondas and Nissans making 500+ Hp with EFI fits right into what were talking about? and most of what I am talking about is testing with EFI

There is no way I would test e85 in the ST as it isnt built for the fuel , if tested in it some one needs to be vary carefull and have the ability to raise the fuel psi

Tom
 
#55 ·
Yes I have , Tuning some speed density/MAP Focus cars now pre 2010, Not all Foci have MAF

Most all standalone uses speed density and I have tuned with a lot of diff ones , Hondata, Moates , AEM , Pectels , COBB , etc etc

I like MAF better and feel it works better but to each there own they both have a place in the performance world

Tom
 
#56 ·
So I am a little curious, I am under the impression a MAP car uses more or less a table that is generated for conditions I.e. temp, altitude to yield the same out put or hp/trq. So map cars do not respond to normal bolts one or they more or less adjust themselves back to the standard state. Is this right? So the right way to tune an e85 car would be to generate a new table with e85 at more or less the extremes? It does not seem like a linear correction factor would work correctly. Is this on par with correct or way off base.
 
#57 ·
MAP cars respond very well to boltons and a performance gain is a gain even untuned and unsafe wont take the gain away just from being MAP , Like a MAF you can run out of MAP (counts / voltage) but in most cases that takes boost and you just change to a 2 BAR or 3+ BAR MAP depending on the amount of boost

Speed density systems calculate the density of the air by measuring the temp of the intake air and manifold psi, with the density of air known the engine ECU then looks up how much air it expects to be moving at a specific engine speed and manifold psi then calculates fuel , Fords have a strange way going about the fueling aspect but it works

Tom
 
#59 ·
Some of these reasons are why I said to get en E85 tune for fun days, not daily driving. Almost all modern cars are capable of running it, you might have to run bigger injectors and fuel pump because you have to be able to flow it.

The argument about not knowing what comes out of the pump - ghey. You buy a $15 tester and thats that. Tune it on class 3, where you are running essentially e70 and leave a little on the table and so long as you know whats coming out of that pump you have no issues.

For the hippies who are crying about the food source or whatever, I am sure you have plenty of other daily practices that put a hurting on the food supply...but I digress. Either way you are here looking to make more power and that means you are going to burn more fuel. No way around it, some of you even run catless.
 
#60 ·
LOL it is the hippies who are demanding ethonol to save mother earth. That makes ethonol a waste right from the start because liberals support it. Never mind it causes smog... and sorry, but corn is one of the largest food staples of the world. Using it for fuel is just plain stupid. Now if they get that algae thing going economicly I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.
 
#62 ·
Then how is it that I made significantly more power on e85? I think there is just a lot of misinformation out there on it. People get great results with it and if you have a tuner who knows it, they can get you safe results.

e85 is the reason I'm upgrading my clutch. 93oct @20psi no problem. e85 @16psi and the clutch starts giving up. This was on the same day, back to back tuning. My high boost tune is waiting. :)

We tuned my car with class3 in the tank vs doing it in the summer when class1 is available. We didnt try to guess at detuning. It runs safe and will do so as the classes change with warmer weather. I test at the pump and mostly run 93oct during the work week.

Octane ratings are often debated, so let me copy from a decent source- VP fuels sourced for info
91 r+m/2
93 r+m/2
e100 122 r+m/2
e85 117 r+m/2
e70 111 r+m/2
q16 118 r+m/2
c16 117 r+m/2
VP import 120 r+m/2
 
#63 ·
Yes IF and I use IF loosely VP fuels are that high in octane they must be using a base fuel of 98-100 to mix the ethanol with to = e85 (most pump e85 are 87-94 octane) then they have total control over each batch they make keeping the octane lever where they advertise it at , there if there is water absorbed into the e85 you can loose as much as 3 octane points and no even know it , this is where an a ethanol test kit which I carry in my car for the states with e10 and have pulled away from MANY pumps after testing

e10 fuel only has a shelf life of 90-100 days and if it has water in it and they do the # of days drop even less and thats from the date its mixed at the refinery not the delivered date http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html

This is NOT THE SAME when it comes to the watered down crap you buy from the pumps that changes octane with each batch and how long it sits for , If your using the VP E85 then were talking a whole new ball game and yes I would retest and maybe try using E85 again

UPDATE : After talking with a friend of mine at VP he stated they have a C85(E85) race fuel they sell as of last year , it is rated at 98 octane , If VP fuels with there quality controls is only rated 98 should make you go Hmmmmmmmm??????? with what your buying at the pumps , VP fuels and I have a long history to gather love there fuels over the years

From VP fuels http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing.html
NEW! C85™
If you’re committed to using E85 type fuels, C85 is by far your best choice. Conventional E85 fuels are notoriously inconsistent, requiring up to a two-jet swing in tuning from one batch of E85 to the next. By contrast, C85 is blended with a consistent proportion of ethanol and every other component in every drum. In addition to taking all the guesswork out of tuning, C85 makes up to 4% more power and torque than conventional E85. With higher quality pure components, C85 is superior to E85 in terms of cooling effect, resistance to detonation and even includes corrosion inhibitors to fight the issues presented by ethanol. C85 works well in drag racing, oval track, off road and virtually any other automotive application, in particular forced induction applications due to its lower vapor pressure. Tests of C85 indicate most applications will require richening up by 1 jet size, or 2-3% over current jetting. Note that for racers unwilling to invest in the new carb and expensive fuel system upgrade required for E85, VP’s MS109, VP113 and Q16 continue to be the best race gas alternatives for the money.

TYPICAL VALUES
• Color: Yellow
• Motor Octane: 90
• R+M/2: 98
• Specific Gravity: .793 @ 60°F

My cost per gallon if buying 55 gallons sells for $10.83

Look at the specific gravity of this C85 (E85)

Even there VP100 ethanol is only 100 octane , he was curious where you got your octane # from , Here is a list of all VP fuels octane http://www.vpracingfuels.com/master-fuels-table

Tom
 
#64 ·
^^ Well wow, that is quite the post. I see your point and this is also why I carry a tester in my glovebox. It is also why I dont run e85 on a daily basis. But for an addl $100 I got the additional map that was created on class3. This means we tuned for the lowest common denominator (pending I test to make sure). I use the same pumps and test each time. So far it has stayed consistent for me.

Regardless of what octane anyone thinks it is or weather or not you feel its any better than 93, I made significant gains on corn over 93 and I would much rather run it than pump gas and meth.
 
#67 ·
I can monitor both at the same time, but the LTFTs are more important here. I also monitor knock, which never happens as far as I've seen, since I run conservative timing. Scan gauges are awesome, you can change what you are monitoring off the OBD buss on the fly and log two variables at a time. Anybody who mods their car this extensively should be running them. Anyway, if I am in tuning mode, I use the Diablosport to log all the important things at the same time. Then I can make graphs or play it back on the computer and send the data to my SCT tuner.
 
#68 ·
Why would you use only the LTFT ? thats just an avg of what the real time stft (shows whats happening now) , you could be lean or rich and not know it for days STFT is an actual of whats happening with the fueling now, LTFT is an AVG calculated over a long peroid of time , hundreds of miles , neither of which have anything to do with OL/WOT fueling

Why use the diablosport that cannot even log knock on the Focus when you have a SCT that can if you know what PID/DMR to choose ?

Just curious ?

Tom
 
#69 ·
I don't tune or run E85 in my Focus Titanium.

I'm talking about my SRT-4, sorry for the confusion.

If you are looking at LTFTs over time (as you drive the car every day) and make note of the values you see during certain operating conditions, it is easy to see a change in how much fuel the car is having to pull or add since the values don't jump around as much as the STFTs. As soon as the car is warmed up and at the first chance I can come to a stop, a quick glance tells me if things are ok or not ethanol content-wise.

WOT AFRs are monitored by my an AFR gauge, which is also on the column.
 
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