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Anyone tried E85 yet?

57K views 162 replies 33 participants last post by  sailor 
#1 ·
Just wondering if the pump(s) and injectors have enough capacity.

I don't want to hear that it sucks or doesn't work. I know it does, I DD with it every day. I'm just wondering if any of the tuners who are working with the ST have done it.

Thanks.
 
#3 ·
Here's my question then. I have a '12 focus titanium that has flexfuel. Are the tank, in-tank pump and the lines the same as for the ST? I'm betting they are. Now all we have to find out is if the hpfp and the injectors can handle e85 like the v6 ecoboost can. Again, I'm betting they can, but I need to find someone in the know.
 
#6 ·
sel with flex

I have used the flex and I find that it does misfired for the first miles or so. I find it really isnt worth it because you get way less mileage (flex250 mpt, regular398mpt). YOu do not want to be switching constently between types, that is way to hard on the car. I would use flex for long trips and stay with gas in town I hope this helps
 
#9 ·
I would use caution with those thinking of using e85 in the ST

e85 isnt known for its octane but for its effects on cooling the air thus lowering the chance of knock , problem is the fuel is now sprayed directly on top of the pistons being direct injection at over 900psi now you dont have the time for cooling the air as much as you did when spraying into the valves + the 30% more needed fuel , the ecu can adjust for this but?

Tom
 
#106 ·
Wrong. Dead wrong.

Preignition is based on 1 thing and 1 thing only, heat.
The "Knock Index" is a reflection of the amount of heat a fuel absorbs before is self ignites, or autoignition.
Now if we look at the autoignition temp for each, click me we see that Ethanol is 689*F and Gasoline is 536*F. Which by my math means Ethanol is 153*F higher than gas.
Now granted that headroom is decreased the more Ethanol is diluted. But it still can not fall below that of Gasoline. Which also means any Ethanol blend should have a higher preignition resistance that any Gasoline.

Bear in mind I'm not talking Knock. That is something entirely different. Knock is an ignition timing issue and generally solvable by adjusting the ignition timing. It is a spark issue due to the fuel used, not an issue with the fuel.



Right off the bat who ever posted that is off a little , C16 = 116 fuel

No contact who makes E85 and ask them the octane rating of at the pump e85 it wont be a motor octane of 94 or even close to a 104 octane

It amazes me people think that e85 has a high octane fuel

Tom

E-85 is so easy to work with it amazes me that you've blown engine up on the stuff.

[poke]
 
#11 ·
It allows you to daily drive a car with a tune that only fuel like c16 can beat and it only costs 3.20 - 3.50/gallon. There are drawbacks and things that have to be done so you can use it, so don't anyone think you can just put it in your car and it will run.
 
#12 ·
e85 isnt = to c16 or c10 or c105 or c100 0r even c98 cotane e85 has a very low octane rating to say e85 has a high octane rating is VERY misleading and means some one does not understand e85 and how it works , e85 works most from its cooling of the charge effects not it claimed higher octane

100 octane fuel in every way will out do e85 and 100 octane fuel would be 100% safer then e85 , cost more yes but how much 100 octane can you buy for the cost of an engine and install ???????

If you added e85 you would need to retune the rueling , if you added 100 cotane you would not need to change the fueling and on a stock tune you would be safer and the focus would add its own timing for the 100 octane fuel to be able to get the gain out of it but only the amount needed and still keep the engine safe


Tom
 
#13 ·
I believe I said you just can't put it in your car and run it and that there are drawbacks.

It works great for me and I daily a car with it (4 1/2 years so far). The car has a modified fuel system to support it and a tune to make it work.

I understand that no one tuning the ST or any focus for that matter it seems, is using it. That's all I started this thread to find out, not to get in a pissing match with people who don't know how to use it or have failed at it.
 
#14 ·
Just seems to me the math doesn't work. Sure e85 costs less initially, but if your using 30% more of it then it seems to me your fuel cost is a lot higher. the previous flex fuel vehicle I owned said if you used e85 then your under sever duty maintenance schedual. Another added cost. Not to mention that corn is generally used to make ethonol.. our food supply= dumb. And e85 makes more smog making components ... if you care about that kind of thing.

As far as octane rating... higher octane does not add horsepower. It allows you to do things to the engine to make more hp. Like higher compression ratios or more ignition timing. Higher octane for simplistic explinations burns slower so detenation can be kept under control.
 
#15 ·
It costs more than regular gas to run, but less than half as much as race gas. So, if you do a little math; 3.5/gal x 1.30 = 4.55/gal (that's the extra 30%) for fuel that is roughly equivalent to c16 in a turbo car. That is the draw. 100oct gas is 7.20/gal and C16 is 18.00/gal. There's some math right there.

Now here is the kicker: It is only worth it if you have the capacity in your fuel system and can turn up the boost a significant amount to get the power.
 
#17 ·
Found this for you od the svtperformance website

Research Octane Number | | Motor Octane Number | | R+M/2
ethanol...........118....................96....... ................107
regular gas .......92....................82................... .....87
E85 (summer)...113....................94.............. .........104
C16.................119.................117....... .................118
Form the person posting:

"As a drag racer I feel the most important number is the Motor octane number. Research and R+M2 don't mean to much to me.
R+M/2 is the number you see at the pump. to get that number you take, research octane plus motor octane and divided by 2.
So you can see where some say the octane of E85 is 113 and some say 104 and some 94. The R+M/2 of E85 is 104"
 
#18 ·
It's not about the octane people, it's about a turbocharged car, with a fuel set up and tune for E85. It been done a thousand times, not by any Ford Focus people, but it's been done.
 
#20 ·
It amazes me people think that e85 has a high octane fuel

Tom
It maddens me that people think higher octane = more power. When infact it only equals less volatility and in many cases less stored chemical energy.

Many forums need to have mandatory stickies regarding what fuel octane actually means to engine performance.

E85 Very plainly is 85% ethanol and 15% petrol. There is not to my knowledge any significant regulation on the octane rating of the 15% of E85 that is petrol.

According to wikipedia there is also E85 winter blend, which is actually E70 (70% ethanol, 30% gasoline). It makes a note (that I find ironic) that because
Winter E85 (E70) contains more petrol that MPG is much higher than with E85 so for once a winter blend fuel with beter MPG than its non-seasonal counterpart.

Wikipedia also states that E85 is mistakenly though to be 105 octane when it is infact 94-96 octane (R+M/2). It also states that E85's use in racing applications First because of its 94-96 octane rating is higher than most premium pump fuel 91-94 octane; and second because of lower intake charge temps.

I would like to point out that water/meth injection is much cheaper and far more effective than e85.

E85 would be a great performance fuel choice for ethanol purpose built engines with closer 14:1 compression and fuel-injection control systems that have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 34% more fuel than a non e85 engine. E85 has a different stoichiometric ratio than pump petrol.

E85 would not be my first choice for a little bit more pep in an inline4 engine.

Glad to hear you have such good luck in your SRT4. I wonder how awesome that would have gone with 94octane and meth injection.
 
#27 ·
I run both e85 and 93 in my forester. I have deatchworks 305 fuel pump and 850cc injectors plus a tune. For the most part I run 93 because it is more efficient for day to day driving, but e85 is just cheap racegas and should be thought of as such. I make considerably more power on my e85 tune at 20psi than I do on 93....much more. In fact we had to dial things back to 16psi because the clutch was slipping at 20...16psi still makes more than my 93oct tune. So for the money - hell yes, get the addl tune for e85 but dont rely on it day to day.

As for the argument that wmi and pump gas is better than e85 , I will say this: I dont have to worry about running a wmi tank dry when my foot is in it. And if you arent tuning for the wmi and using it as a safety, you arent going to even come close to e85.

The different classes of e85 are there for temperatures and startup. More fuel for winter, hence the e70. This is on caveat of having an e85 tune. Your tuner has to leave you that margin and cant go tuning you on the ragged edge using class1. You should never use a pump that says "Minimum 55% ethanol" unless you test it and know what you are getting, plain and simple. So there are reasons its just not practical day to day but no reason not to pay the extra $100 for the addl tune while you are on the rollers.
 
#28 ·
enginejoe... I am really tired of reading your lust for ethonol. Read this. It is old... but accurate. I really think your a corn farmer in disguise.
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
1turbofocus is too profesional to say it so I will.... ethonol is a pink elephant. You get less energy per gallon, cost is high... and you need to modify existing platforms to make it work. Geez get a clue! It isn't even close to being worth the cost involved. Plus it uses up our FOOD source for crying out loud. AND it produces more smog.
 
#32 ·
I'm tired of reading about how everyone and their mother hates E85 on this site. Damn near every other automotive platform enthusiast group has seen the benefits of E85 as a race fuel and adopted ways to use it. But the focus community seems to he behind the times on that.

Society of automotive engineers? My kind of people.

Here's a powerpoint presentation of the paper (nice pictures and bullet with main points without being too technical). This is good stuff.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...Wgykcf&sig=AHIEtbS_MwBaEtns_DsPTIHGjoUNVgIU8A

I decided to add clifFor Sale:

They added port fuel injected gas to a DI high compression motor (one example was the v6 ecoboost with higher compression) to try and get better use of the E85 by only using it in a direct injection way to suppress knock (keep temps lower).

So...basically for idle and cruise you use mainly gas, and when cylinder pressures rise (you have your foot in it), you use the E85. This way you get good economy and lower emissions. Sounds kinda complicated though with two fuel systems.

Interesting tidbits are the quoted octane numbers for ethanol and the fact that they are getting closer to a possibility of a high compression FI motor that would have similar fuel economy to a lower compression regular gas only motor.
Now that's what I want to read. I've been running E in mine for a few weeks, and it seems to love it. Factory ECM made some slight tweaks to timing and AFRs and it seems to pull just a Tad bit harder. Its no ST but I feel the car still takes advantage of it.
 
#29 ·
1turbofocus has business doing what he does; in short, something to sell. I don't. I'm not a corn farmer. I live in Tucson, AZ and enginjoe = engineer joe. I'm a scientist and I live to learn and try new things. I've forgotten more about science than most normal people know, and I understand the chemistry of the energy we can get from gas and ethanol. I'm also a car guy, and whatever I can find to make my car better, faster or cooler, I'll try if it fits what I'm doing with that car. The politicians gave us lemons (ethanol in our fuel) and I choose to make lemonade (cheap race gas in my daily driver).

I understand that no one has done it with the ST yet and it may prove to not be very worthwhile. Until someone does, I'm interested in the outcome of the testing.
 
#31 ·
Society of automotive engineers? My kind of people.

Here's a powerpoint presentation of the paper (nice pictures and bullet with main points without being too technical). This is good stuff.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...Wgykcf&sig=AHIEtbS_MwBaEtns_DsPTIHGjoUNVgIU8A

I decided to add cliffs:

They added port fuel injected gas to a DI high compression motor (one example was the v6 ecoboost with higher compression) to try and get better use of the E85 by only using it in a direct injection way to suppress knock (keep temps lower).

So...basically for idle and cruise you use mainly gas, and when cylinder pressures rise (you have your foot in it), you use the E85. This way you get good economy and lower emissions. Sounds kinda complicated though with two fuel systems.

Interesting tidbits are the quoted octane numbers for ethanol and the fact that they are getting closer to a possibility of a high compression FI motor that would have similar fuel economy to a lower compression regular gas only motor.
 
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