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Think I figured out the shuddering when starting from a stop...can't believe it

66K views 401 replies 94 participants last post by  narkotskyb 
#1 ·
So I've had more issues with the shuddering than I could even explain, and it all started with the TSB for the transmission update. Since that point, it's shuddered mostly every time I start from a stop. It's obnoxious, and makes the car feel cheap and crappy when people are riding in it. I've had it in the shop probably 3-4 times for this issue and every time they've said "It's supposed to act like that" and that the computer displays no errors.

So what did I do today? Turned off Traction Control. The second I turned it off, the shuddering from a stop no longer happened. I drove my 15 minute commute to work without a *single* shudder. The shifts were smooth, the starts and stops were smooth, and even mashing the gas when going into a corner from a stop or slow roll didn't make the car buck around like it was having a stroke.

Turn it back on? And the shuddering happened the very next light. Turned it back off, and no more shuddering.

Is it possible that this issue is somehow related to the Traction Control module initiating when it doesn't need to? I have lighter wheels on the car than stock (Sparco Assetto 18), but didn't have an issue with this until the TSB update. The lighter wheels might fool the computer into thinking it's losing traction (since there's less friction and resistance on the drive shaft), but I really can't postulate an answer beyond that.

For those of you with "Shuddering" issues, please help me test this by just disabling the Traction Control and driving like you normally would. If it's gone (or at least severely reduced), post back and let me know. Maybe Ford needs to issue a recall for the *CORRECT* part in the car this time.
 
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#2 ·
Interesting, mine is essentially acting like yours.
Since the TSB, once it has warmed up a little bit, she'll will shudder some in first gear. I'm @ 23,400 miles, so with a fair bit remaining on the powertrain warranty, I've been biding my time ... waiting / wondering if it will get worse. I'll go to the dealer again when it warrants it, but my sense is that they'll tell me the tranny is fine.

I've got to run some errand this morning, I'll wait 'till she starts to shudder and try your fix.
 
#14 ·
bsp_53, I'm close to 27k miles, so around the same boat. Give it and shot and let me know if it helps at all.
Today was inconclusive (didn't drive enough to get reliable results). Tomorrow will tell the tale for sure. I'll keep you posted. [cheers]
 
#5 ·
Very cool--this looks promising! I hope this is a breakthrough for those of you with this annoying issue.
 
#6 ·
I plan on hitting the gas station down the street for a Monster at lunchtime (even though I'll be losing my prime parking spot and I'm actually getting lunch at work today)...so I'll let you know if it's still working fine with the TC off.

Also, we need a physical button or switch to enable/disable TC. I hate going through the dash menu for it.
 
#7 ·
Could it be that with the wheel+tire combo you have, your call falls outside the diameter of wheel that the TC is expecting? My understanding is that the car expects a certain number of revolutions at a given speed, and if its not getting that number, the TC will start doing things.

I had a similar problem with my bimmer's traction control bc i had wheel+tires that were a bit too big (speedometer was off too).

It's just a thought.

Edit: Also the most recent flash for the DCT was also for the ABS/traction control. So maybe there is something at issue there.
 
#8 ·
The tire and wheel combo is identical to the factory. The tires are actually the stock summer-performance tires, just put on different wheels. The wheels are a lot lighter (21lbs instead of 32lbs), but the dimensions are identical. I put my winter tires on the stock wheels so I could have good-looking black wheels for my summer tires.

Maybe that's the issue. I'm waiting for the regional customer service manager to call me back today so I can let her know the dealership did nothing, and I'll mention my testing as well while I'm on the phone.

It's funny...because I actually perform Quality Assurance as a career [:D]
 
#12 ·
Yep after the 12b37 update I noticed my shifting got worse until the point that my clutches were just recently replaced due to a TSB that involves a leaky seal somewhere in either the transmission or the engine. Either way I had a lot of Noise from my tranny, Inconsistent acceleartion (like surging), RPM's would flare up and hang at various places on the tach and acceleration would lag.

After the new clutches. It is a whole different car. The acceleration is always consistent, passing gear and downshifts are snappy and hold through the expected shift points and redline and no weird noise or shudders.

I do though still get early upshifts when making 90 degree left or right turns though.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Yep after the 12b37 update I noticed my shifting got worse until the point that my clutches were just recently replaced due to a TSB that involves a leaky seal somewhere in either the transmission or the engine.

After the new clutches. It is a whole different car. The acceleration is always consistent, passing gear and downshifts are snappy and hold through the expected shift points and redline and no weird noise or shudders.
Must be nice... but did you have transmission fluid leaking on the outside of your transmission? I fear that if I don't have that issue, no one will even look at my clutch(es).
 
#16 ·
I turned it off on the drive to and from the gas station (just down the street, but involves 3 stops, including leaving the parking lot here and there) and didn't have a single shudder. Inconclusive, to be sure, since there isn't really much data to go on...but not a single shudder is still a hint that it's looking better.
 
#17 ·
I ALWAYS drive with TC off, and I NEVER have any issues with my gearbox.

I sometimes forget to turn it off right away, and don't notice any significant issues, however. Not that I'm really looking out for them, so I could just not be noticing.
 
#19 ·
Very interesting news, folks! I'll keep an eye on this thread and see if people are having consistent results that I can share.

As always, reach out to me if you need assistance. I'm happy to see how I can help!

Thanks!
Crystal [wave]
 
#33 ·
Thank you, Crystal. Please do keep an eye on this thread. I believe that hotleadsingerguy may have made an important discovery.
 
#23 ·
hotleadsingerguy, you're a genius! Inconclusive for now (I have a long commute home later today to gather more "data"), but, I went out mid day for errands, and tried this (I have the shudder issue as well), and , it worked! Not a single shudder, stumble or hesitation at all. Very smooth starts from a standstill, and the shifts seemed "crisper" for sure. Just before I re parked the car for the day, I turned the TCS back on just to test this, and my last standing start into the parking lot produced the shudder right away...hmmmm, I think we may be onto something. I have the car booked in tomorrow for an oil change and they are looking into my DCT issues (may have a leaking seal inside the bell housing). I will mention this finding to them to see what they think.
What I find surprising (I guess maybe I shouldn't though), is how come none of the service guys or Ford engineers even once thought about this, since we all know that the latest TSB/FSA update changed the way the TCS/ABS system behaves ---- none of these field engineers looked into a possible connection? really??
Like you hotleadsingerguy, my shudder issues didn't start until after I had the last update applied (not by choice, the dealer did it anway)... it drove fine prior to that. [bash]
 
#27 ·
Same here...it wasn't by choice. My car operated exactly as I liked it when I bought it, which is why I spent $30k on it. I wouldn't have purchased a car I wasn't satisfied. Then, a year later, Ford forces me to get an update that screws up the operation of the vehicle and makes it perform like a completely different car...in the worst way possible. They even threaten to cancel your warranty on powertrain issues if you don't get the update. That would be fine if the update were tested by more than 2 people that apparently don't understand cars and how they should operate.

Either way...the more people that can test this the more results we'll have to list for Ford. The fact that not a single engineer has found a correlation between the TCS update and the shudder would be mind-blowing if we hadn't already been struggling with the ineptitude of the MyFord Touch team. Now it just seems par for the course in the feigned "New" Ford Motor Company.
 
#59 ·
The TC in my C5 Z06 would always default to "On". It too only took a second to defeat, but I also bought a module that spliced in to the OBDII connector that REMEMBERED where I left it and set it that way every time. That was a nice mod.

Wonder if it will work on the Ford.....?

I wonder if this is a torque management issue, or an ABS/TC issue. Damn, I wish we could get some tuning for this car!
 
#32 ·
Very interesting. Like feta, I haven't had a ton of issues with shifting in my car. But I still have noticed shuddering from time to time. I'll give this a go on the way home from work later...
 
#35 ·
This is an excellent thread and I'm glad our reps are keeping an eye on it as well. There are a number of potential reasons why the TC could play a roll with the shudder thing but the bottom line is that it's likely the TC is modulating throttle and maybe the brakes -- either one or both could produce those symptoms.

I wonder it someone with the shudder problem could do a before and after YouTube video with good audio -- that would be interesting. And drive the same course with and without TC.

Lastly, I wonder if TC outputs are monitored in a way that could be recorded or captured with an OBD device. If so it would be very interesting to do back-to-back tests with and without TC to see what differences can be seen in the data.

I should mention that I've never had any shudder issues with my 2012 FF Ti nor any MFT issues.


Brian
 
#36 ·
My Regional Customer Service Manager called me today and I explained the situation to her...and she said it's up to the dealerships on whether they want to check into something or not. If they say no there's "nothing" that corporate Ford can do to overturn it.

She said there would be nothing she could do if the service techs or service manager refuse to do something.

I now have a conference call Friday with a corporate engineer to discuss what is happening and what could be causing it. Apparently initiating a discussion on concentric dry dual-clutch transmission systems is a bit too complicated for a regional customer service manager. She attempted to tell me, once again, that that's how the cars operate...which flies in the face of the countless other dual-clutch transmissions in the world that don't operate this way at all...especially if turning off the TCS fixes the problem completely.

Either way, the issue didn't start until the update was applied (the conglomerated update of the TCS, ABS, and Tranny)...so it wasn't something in the way the transmission was *designed*, which is what every service tech has told me up until this point. The worst part is there's really nowhere else to go from here other than starting a lawsuit, which I'm definitely not above doing. In the coming months either the car will be fixed, the car will be bought back by Ford, or a lawsuit will be initiated. I'm definitely not driving a car for the next 10 years that operates this way. I didn't buy a car that operates this way, and I'll be darned if one is forced on me.
 
#38 ·
Great find Hotleadsingerguy!!! This makes a huge difference. I only did a short drive going out for lunch but definitely confirmed it! Wow, hope thus helps get us a new PCM update since the last update (dreaded it too) 12b37 caused this issue.

My car used to drive so smooth it was hard to know when it shifted without looking at the tach. I used to take off from a stop up to 4th gear (with the music volume up of course) and ask passengers if they could tell when it shifted ... usually they couldn't. Now adays post 12b37 I dare not ask and I kinda feel embarrased how it slips the clutches or shudders between first and second and the hard shifts in 2nd, 3rd, n 4th as well.

I will be using TC off until another update is released and hope mt clutches and tranny didn't get damaged too much. Still curious if I got the tranny leak but havn't checked for it yet.

Thanks Hotleadsingerguy ... +1 for you!!!
 
#41 ·
Hey gang,

As I mentioned before, I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and see how successful it is for everyone. If I notice that you've escalated with me in the past and this fix works, I want to make a note of it and pass this info up the chain.

If it works for you and you don't post publicly, could you send me a quick PM and let me know your results? That would be a great help to me.

Thanks so much!
Crystal [wave]
 
#42 ·
Seems to me that this problem could be resolved permanently with a simple software update, just rewrite the code to make the TCS default to off, and if you want it on then you can turn it on yourself.
 
#44 ·
I dont think they can turn off TCS by default for safety reasons, they just need to make it less aggressive for sensing slippage.
 
#47 ·
I wondeur if the TCS needs to be reworked on all foci. I've stalled more than a few times thinking i didnt give it enough gas or that it didnt have enough torque.
 
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