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Old 11-25-2013, 11:31 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
The thing about Cadillac is that the cars ARE technically tarted up Chevrolets.... They all share platforms.
The key difference is that the Cadillacs come first and THEN they are watered down and given a bowtie; not the other way around like Ford is doing with Lincoln.


Also, I'm calling it right now that the 2.3 won't receive more power for the Mustang. 275hp/300tq is way above the capabilities of the current V6 already and any more power would sacrifice any efficiency gains they might be advertising over the V6. I'm guessing with the new Mustang's light-weight and upcoming 10-speed transmissions, the ecoboost mileage will be astronomical.
I think part of the Ford/Lincoln problem is that the Fords are quite good to begin with. The Fusion, Escape, Focus, etc. are all class-leading or near to it in terms of driving dynamics, exterior and interior design, and efficiency. Hard for Lincoln to present a case a for picking them over the Ford.
Whereas with Chevy/Cadillac, the Chevy's are mid-pack daily drivers and cruisers, and the Caddy's are performance-minded cars aimed squarely at taking down BMW.

As for the Ecoboost power debate:
1.6L - 178 HP in the Fusion, 197 HP in the Fiesta ST
2.0L - 240 HP in the Fusion/Escape/Explorer, 252 in the Focus ST
3.5L - 350 ft/lbs in the Flex/Taurus SHO, 420 ft/lbs in the F150

Each model gets a little difference in tune to better fit that application. I'd be very surprised if the 2.3L in the Mustang doesn't have at least 300 HP to match the 3.7's 306 HP, although it will certainly have a torque advantage either way.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:31 PM   #42
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As others have stated, GM does well because they use trickle down technology. Had Ford debuted the Lincoln MKZ first, with the 2.0T and 3.7, then re-did the fusion a couple years later, they would have better luck I'd think. The other issue is that Lincoln doesn't follow the model of other luxury cars.

BMW 3 Series, RWD or AWD
Mercedes C class: RWD or AWD
Cadillac ATS: RWD or AWD

(All available with 3 pedals in at least RWD format.)
All also have or will have a top level preformance variant. (M series, AMG series, V series.)

Lincoln MKZ: FWD or AWD and no manual at all. No performance model.

Go drive a Cadillac ATS, there isn't a Chevy sedan that feels ANYTHING like it. Chevy doesn't even have a sedan built on the alpha platform yet. (It's going to trickle down to the camaro and possibly Regal.)
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swansong View Post
As for the Ecoboost power debate:
1.6L - 178 HP in the Fusion, 197 HP in the Fiesta ST
2.0L - 240 HP in the Fusion/Escape/Explorer, 252 in the Focus ST
3.5L - 350 ft/lbs in the Flex/Taurus SHO, 420 ft/lbs in the F150
You're right that Ford configures some engines differently for certain types of vehicles; however, it is worth noting that all Ford/Lincoln Vehicles that use the 3.7 V6 are relatively unchanged. Considering the 3.7 was originally exclusive to the Mustang, I'm fairly confident that the 2.3 will carry over unchanged for the pony car as well. If we see a more powerful version of this 2.3 it will most likely be in a Focus RS with 300 or more hp.

Its my opinion that it wouldn't make sense for Ford to put a more powerful turbo 4 cylinder between the V6 and V8 Mustangs.

This is Ford's formula: The Taurus SE starts at $26,700 for a 3.5l V6 with 288hp/254tq 23mpg combined
For $1000 more you can get the SE with a 2.0 EcoBoost with 240hp/270tq 26mpg combined. Nothing else about the car is changed. You are essentially paying more for a "less powerful" engine that offers improved economy.

You can look at examples from Fusion/Edge/Escape/Explorer as well and the option list is the same. All the base models have an optional EcoBoost engine that makes performs roughly the same as the non-turbo counterpart while returning better fuel economy.

I see no reason why Ford would not apply this formula to the Mustang as well.

You could argue that because Ford revised the tuning for the ST engines, the Mustang would receive the same treatment... Please note that the ST trim is the top level. There's no more powerful option than the ST so of course Ford revised the engines. The Mustang, on the other hand, has a 662hp option for thrill-seekers.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:09 PM   #44
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I could see the Mustang getting special treatment just because, well, Mustang.

You're definitely right about Ford's pricing and engine arrangement on other vehicles. Even the Fiesta is included, the more efficient and powerful 1.0L is an upcharge.

I just think that it's going to be hard to sell most Mustang buyers on efficiency and not HP. Beside the fact that it's a *gasp* 4 cylinder, it's going to cost more than the 6. Doesn't bother me personally, since I'm pretty interested in the new Mustang and the 2.3 is the one if get. Lightness, torque, and dollar-per-hp on mods have me intrigued. So I'm pulling for at least 310 hp stock, but it wouldn't bother me if it were less.

Another thing to consider is that the 2.3 will be the biggest seller, and possibly only engine choice, in some European markets. It ought to have some decent HP to make both sides of the pond avoid feeling like they're getting shafted. We know it will be a capable engine since it will be used in the ought-to-be-300-hp Focus RS.

Of course, all speculation until at least Dec 5, when the 2015 will be unveiled worldwide.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:48 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
Also, I'm calling it right now that the 2.3 won't receive more power for the Mustang. 275hp/300tq is way above the capabilities of the current V6 already and any more power would sacrifice any efficiency gains they might be advertising over the V6.
"Sometime after the new Mustang reaches dealer lots, we will begin to see interesting underhood options. With European and federal fuel-economy standards in mind, Ford will introduce the first turbocharged four-cylinder Mustang since the 1986 SVO model. And the engine will be the same size, 2.3 liters, as that car’s four-banger. It’ll generate 310 horsepower with direct injection, and it will be marketed as an uplevel alternative to the base six. Its premium should be justified not only by its expected mileage gain but also by its high, flat torque curve."

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...l-details-news
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:48 AM   #46
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Car & Driver is the automotive equivalent of "The Enquirer"
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:53 AM   #47
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Car & Driver is the automotive equivalent of "The Enquirer"
Just about to say something along those lines. Their Mustang "Reveal" in last month's issue shows that they love to claim fiction as fact and that they know everything. The "photos" in their article were clearly renderings, and likely incorrect at that. A number of differences have been noted between C&D's rendering and Chazcron's (via mustang6g.com) CAD-based renderings. But they're 95% similar so close enough.

Stablemate Road and Track once reported 350 hp for the 2.3L, and I've seen anywhere from 275 to 305 to 310 to 350 for hp estimates. So who knows really.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mac.mogul View Post
You can look at examples from Fusion/Edge/Escape/Explorer as well and the option list is the same. All the base models have an optional EcoBoost engine that makes performs roughly the same as the non-turbo counterpart while returning better fuel economy.

I see no reason why Ford would not apply this formula to the Mustang as well.
Because it's a Mustang (and not a family car), the same set of rules may not apply.

A high performance turbo 4 in a lightweight, rear wheel drive car may attract a number of enthusiasts that otherwise may not be interested in a "pony car".
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:09 AM   #49
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In its currently reported state, the 2.3 is more powerful than the Hyundai 2.0t used in the Genesis and will likely be more efficient as well. I still hold that Ford will not change the output of the 2.3 when it goes into the Mustang.

Another thing you need to consider is that this engine will be a global engine. Pumping more power into it will increase its CO2 emissions and increase the amount of tax you would need to pay in order to own it. The Focus ST has an emission rating of 169g/km so I would assume the 2.3 will be slightly more in its current iteration.

Bumping up the power would likely scare away younger buyers in other countries who are fiercely taxed for performance vehicles. That's not what the Mustang is about.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:42 PM   #50
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Europe press are all stating that the 2.3L EcoBoost in the Mustang will be rated at 310hp.
I guess we will find out December 5.

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