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Old 09-26-2013, 07:48 AM   #31
bnoon
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Originally Posted by Tjrommel View Post
it's a 37% efficiency diffence between gasahol and ethanol. however if you were to run your injectors at 37% more flow you would see a gain in power as it can run more lean and has an octane rating of 110-120ish. There are plenty of dynos comparing the two
Run more lean? Octane rating?

The extra power comes from these things: The cooler temperature of the fuel burning, the extra surface area of the 35+/-% of fuel needed, and the slower burn provides a longer more controlled power stroke.

The octane ratings do vary by manufacturer, but around here they range from 100-108. There's another difference however that makes the octane rating not an apples to apples match because ethanol has a different chemical composition and needs a different formula to calculate octane (which most places do not post on their tanks/pumps). True octane is in the high 90's, but due to the added amount of fuel required and the higher flash temp the "effective" octane jumps higher.

One more... These things allow more compression, more timing, more boost, which in turn can require well beyond 35% more fuel (I've seen 50-75% more needed in high boost applications). That's where more power comes from, not just the fuel itself.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:14 AM   #32
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I did a test awhile back. Over many tanks of E85 from the neighborhood store I found that E85 yielded me $0.115/mile cost and 93 E10 yielded $0.113/mile cost. This was with a very steep $0.80/gal discount on the E85 at $2.955/gal. I found the price gap needs to be around that $0.80/gal to make E85 viable for me. When 93 drops below ~2.80/gal E85 becomes less attractive quickly.

[...]

87 octane is junk in this car. Seat of the pants shows terrible performance and a cost analysis over multiple tanks puts it in the $0.135/mile range. Not a huge difference in price, but at 26k miles a year it's worth noting for me.
how on earth is 93 octane 2 a mile cheaper than 87? mpg difference?

whats the 87-93 price gap where you are?
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:28 PM   #33
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The octane ratings do vary by manufacturer, but around here they range from 100-108. There's another difference however that makes the octane rating not an apples to apples match because ethanol has a different chemical composition and needs a different formula to calculate octane (which most places do not post on their tanks/pumps). True octane is in the high 90's, but due to the added amount of fuel required and the higher flash temp the "effective" octane jumps higher.
.
So I am guessing you have tested this and know and have seen octane that high ?
My guess is you havent even bought a tester and checked the E levels of what you posting about ?
this Gauls me when this happens then people think e85 is good and with high octane IT ISNT , please do your homework , check your E levels and have it tested for the octane BEFORE posting BS # , I did and it sucked , nothing like what your CLAIMING

The octane isnt posted on the pumps because it not close to the octane people think it is and they wouldnt buy it if then knew , then the longer it sits after being made the lower the octane and E levels drop drastically over time , People think 87 is used for the base fuel , I wish , what would it drop your octane to is say 85 or 81 octane is used

Do you actually think that the manufactures of E fuels are going to use prime 87 fuel that they could sell for more money in the E fuels , aint going to happen , you need to do some more research and spend a few hundred dollars on some testing like I did

The E level cheap water tester is like 30.00 off ebay that shws you what the E level is and if its actaully e85 , start there !

Tom
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:54 PM   #34
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So I am guessing you have tested this and know and have seen octane that high ?
My guess is you havent even bought a tester and checked the E levels of what you posting about ?
this Gauls me when this happens then people think e85 is good and with high octane IT ISNT , please do your homework , check your E levels and have it tested for the octane BEFORE posting BS # , I did and it sucked , nothing like what your CLAIMING

The octane isnt posted on the pumps because it not close to the octane people think it is and they wouldnt buy it if then knew , then the longer it sits after being made the lower the octane and E levels drop drastically over time , People think 87 is used for the base fuel , I wish , what would it drop your octane to is say 85 or 81 octane is used

Do you actually think that the manufactures of E fuels are going to use prime 87 fuel that they could sell for more money in the E fuels , aint going to happen , you need to do some more research and spend a few hundred dollars on some testing like I did

The E level cheap water tester is like 30.00 off ebay that shws you what the E level is and if its actaully e85 , start there !

Tom
Yes, I have tested it. Good guess.

No, I haven't purchased one of those cheap testers (they do work though). I know people in the business and have ran tests myself using their lab equipment (part of the tour, or at least it used to be). We're in the farming business (corn specifically) and can tour these places at the drop of a hat. I have 4 production centers within a few miles of my house.

The Ethanol I buy is blended at the pump with 87 octane from the 87 octane tank and the E100 tank. The same fuel it's blended with to make the E10, E15, E30, E50 blends. The Hy-Vee gas station on 51st and Mill Civic Parkway in West Des Moines. Looks like you wished hard enough.

We've had this discussion before. I know people in the industry, I've been to the processing plants, I've gone through their procedures all the way from grain delivery through pumping it into my tank.

Minimum ethanol content is 70% on the preblended E85 tanks by the way.

What I claim is that it's working for me and has been for about 10 years now on several different platforms. I'm even modifying a Holley 750 for my 454 truck to run it on E85 (after I throw new dome pistons in it and get my RHS heads for 12:1 compression).
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Old 09-27-2013, 03:50 PM   #35
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Then your octane testing e85 octane at 100+ is the first octane test I have ever herd of that was that high ever , would love to see the actual test showing this and how it was tested

Who did the testing that showed that high of octane ? I had mine tested at the NC state department of commerce weights and measures , a test from the place making it and selling it wouldnt carry much weight for me

So you havent tested the actual e levels in your area to see if they were actually e85 ? Im guessing you dont have a tester ? yes the cheap tester works very well to show how much E is in what your buying

Whats done in house has nothing to do with whats at the pumps , I have never see E fuels sold where the 87 octane was in one tank and the E fuel was in another and mixed right at the pump so I called the store you mentioned and was given an # to there gas department and went to the head guy Mike , he stated the e85 fuels WERE NOT mixed at the tank/pump they were premixed and delivered mixed according to his invoices and that was to all hy-vee stores according to him , so again where you getting what you claimed above in octane and E ratings ?

VP Fuels that quality controles there E85 dont even claim octanes that high , VP Fuels E85 I have used and love but never see the same results from pump e85 its all over the place from one fill up to another

Not trying to bust your balls just trying to learn and if your e85 is the octane # you posted I would like to learn how , Mike gave me another # to contact and I am going to look into the e fuels in your area more they may be diff then in mine

Tom
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Old 09-28-2013, 01:13 PM   #36
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Then your octane testing e85 octane at 100+ is the first octane test I have ever herd of that was that high ever , would love to see the actual test showing this and how it was tested
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True octane is in the high 90's, but due to the added amount of fuel required and the higher flash temp the "effective" octane jumps higher.
The pumps have stickers on them here showing the range of octanes that are 100+, but again I agree with you those are inflated numbers because they are advertising the effective octane including the extra fuel needed at the same power level. Since we add more fuel, the effective octane is what we can work with.

I've never talked to Mike from Hy Vee, but I have seen the mixer pumps around before that even advertise that they are mixer pumps. The Hy Vee did not advertise it, but they were on the E85 mixer registry. Duped by the internet on that one. http://www.ethanol.org/index.php?id=84 http://www.byoethanol.com/ Here's the blender pump pages where I started searching for one locally, but I don't see where I found the registry before, but most likely on one of the forums. I'm thinking the other one I saw was at a Kum & Go convenience store. Since this is Iowa, we grow the corn, and our State has higher incentives as well as the fuel isn't taxed as much as straight gas, making it cheaper. Mid grade 89 gas is cheaper than 87 here and always has been.

I remembered where I searched "Ethanol Blender Pump Locations". It was a straight Google search here https://www.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...e7cf3ae206a7c0 that lead me in the wrong direction. I need to make some calls.

BTW, I also agree with you that the longer it sits the less ethanol it contains and the octane goes down, but here in Iowa the ethanol sells well and keeps moving, so doesn't deteriorate much.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:01 PM   #37
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I've ran 4 full tanks with E85 now and I am absolutely sold on the performance of this fuel over conventional petrol. The cost difference for me between E85 and 93 premium is right around what I lose in fuel economy. Which I'm ok with. :) I have taken a huge drop in fuel economy (7-9mpg) but this is primarily because my heavy right foot and the way Ethanol burns over conventional petrol. My throttle response is better throughout the rev range and having the intake lid off on these cool mornings is giving me a slight boost of power over stock. From a stop it does pickup speed noticeable quicker, which I love. I can only imagine having a tune with this combination. :)

According to my video recordings I've taken 0.3s or so off my 0-60 time (taken at 85F outside) and improved the mid-upper range power. My passing powerband (60-70 mph) at WOT seems to get down the road a bit quicker. I'd imagine if I do 0-60 runs early in the morning out on the abandoned road south of our neighborhood with a cooler temperature I should see a little extra oomph.

And the most important thing of all, it allows me to have just a bit more fun in an otherwise non-sporty car.
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:08 PM   #38
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Just noticed last week that the "mid grade" fuel is now 87 as well vs. 89 that it used to be. So now we have 87 petrol and 87 10% ethanol blend. Not sure what they've done to it to drop the two octane points if anything at all. Price points between 87/87 10%/91 10% remains the same as previous and E85 was only $2.47 a gallon this morning compared to $3.59 for 91. I averaged 32.1 MPG this tank on E85 and floor it every on-ramp. Love it!
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Old 10-11-2013, 02:34 PM   #39
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I've ran 4 full tanks with E85 now and I am absolutely sold on the performance of this fuel over conventional petrol. The cost difference for me between E85 and 93 premium is right around what I lose in fuel economy. Which I'm ok with. :) I have taken a huge drop in fuel economy (7-9mpg) but this is primarily because my heavy right foot and the way Ethanol burns over conventional petrol. My throttle response is better throughout the rev range and having the intake lid off on these cool mornings is giving me a slight boost of power over stock. From a stop it does pickup speed noticeable quicker, which I love. I can only imagine having a tune with this combination. :)

According to my video recordings I've taken 0.3s or so off my 0-60 time (taken at 85F outside) and improved the mid-upper range power. My passing powerband (60-70 mph) at WOT seems to get down the road a bit quicker. I'd imagine if I do 0-60 runs early in the morning out on the abandoned road south of our neighborhood with a cooler temperature I should see a little extra oomph.

And the most important thing of all, it allows me to have just a bit more fun in an otherwise non-sporty car.
Its all in your head , dyno both and you will see , I have

What I do believe is your loosing MPG 7-9 mpg which is about right

Tom
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:33 PM   #40
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How is it in my head if the throttle response is better and my 0-60 time is a little faster? :D If I can find my previous 0-60 videos and post a couple of ones with E85 using the same road I will post it on YouTube. Maybe I could try and post a side-by-side if I can figure how to in my video editing program. Them maybe we can determine if it's in my head or not? :)

*edit*
I'm not arguing BTW I'm legitimately asking a question. :)
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