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Old 02-25-2013, 02:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dieselboy77 View Post
So does this synthetic vs non synthetic battle sounds like the Winter tyres vs all season tyres battle....
It's not a battle. It's a discussion, sharing of information. Some folks are polite. Others are rude. The sun will rise tomorrow.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #32
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I'm partial to synthetic in engines that see severe duty and I would only use synthetic in a turbo aplication due to the extremely higher heat temp from the engine to the turbo and of course low temp pourability is a biggie on start-up. My vehciles don't get too many miles a year on them like they used to so I just change my synthetic oil once a year no matter how many miles I put on it.
Is that following the recommended drain intervals of the oil company that manufactures the oil in question? A mere handful are safely capable of extended drain/elapsed time intervals. Most are not safely capable of that rigorous service. Oils have a recommended change interval based on mileage and also elapsed time, whichever comes first. With an engine that even only gets a few hundred miles per year, as that oil just sits in the engines crankcase with the engine not even running, it is going through chemical changes from blowby gases, temperature changes, fuel in the oil, humidity/water, etc., that degrade the performance/protection ability of the oil. For this reason, low mileage/short trip driving where an engine doesn't get up to normal operating temperatures to evaporate water and fuel inside the crankcase can be some of the most extreme conditions for an oil to try and contend with and immediately falls into the severe service category. It might, "look okay", on the dipstick, but actually be in terrible chemical condition. If the oil isn't formulated to withstand a long drain interval in elapsed time and it isn't drained by the manufacturers recommended time schedule, engine damage can result. Be careful and check to see if the oil you are using has a recommended change interval up to a year in elapsed time. Just go to their website and search using Keywords --> Recommended oil change interval.

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by lddavis View Post
You're talking past each other. No one said you can't use petroleum oil. The key is the phrase "proper change intervals", and the earlier mention of "price versus cost".

A quick check on Autozone.com gives me $4.79/qt for Mobil petro oil, and $8.99/qt for full synthetic. Assume five quarts of oil. Change the petro oil every 3000 miles. Change the synthetic every 10,000. After 30,000 miles, you've spent $239 on petro oil, or $135 on synthetic. In addition, you also pay three times the labor for changing the petro oil more often -- and even if you do it yourself, your own time is worth something.

Sure, you can keep the engine running, but the petro oil costs you more. That's neglecting other disadvantages like disposing of three times the waste and having the car down three times as often.

And as for frequent oil changes damaging the engine -- well, if you take it to a quickie lube place, every oil change is another chance for them to break something, so you want as few of those as possible :)
One of the most intelligent, well put posts here. Thank you.

As to why excessive oil changes can cause engine damage; every single time the oil is changed, the engine oiling system loses its prime and when the engine is started there is zero oil pressure and metal-to-metal contact going on inside the engine that it never see's at any other time in its life. That kind of wear can rob life from an engine, reducing it's operating efficiency, (reduced fuel economy and power), and longevity. It wont run, "like new", for as long as it could have. Excessive oil changes are not doing any engine a favor. Of course, the greedy big oil industry likes to siphon off consumers hard earned money if they can, but consumer groups called them on this and even the greedy big oil companies are now no longer recommending needless and wasteful 3,000 mile drain pain intervals.

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Old 02-25-2013, 04:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by xxMichaelAnthony View Post
265,000 miles.

I'll try again: With a good filter and proper change intervals for the quality of oil you're using, it'll run forever.
No one suggested that a petroleum oil couldn't deliver long mileage out of an engine. It's the cost savings and performance a top quality synthetic oil can deliver that is the issue.

265,000 miles divided by 3,000 mile petroleum oil changes = a whopping 88 oil changes x say $4.79 per quart x 4 quarts = $19.16 for oil and say about $4.00 for a cheap oil filter, (boy an engine really loves cheap oil filters...not!). That equals $23.16 per oil change x 7% sales tax = $24.78 per oil change. Wow, that sure is low cost..or is it? You use a better oil filter you say? Okay, whatever the additional price of that oil filter is, just tack that additional cost on to the total.

$24.78 x 88 oil changes has an actual/real cost of $2,180.64!

"But I can get oil changes for only $20 each!"

Okay, so you're a cheapskate with an engine worth thousands and thousands of dollars. Makes perfect sense.

$20.00 x 7% sales tax = $21.40 per oil change.

$21.40 x 88 oil changes = $1,883.20 in petroleum oil change costs!

It doesn't seem so, "cheap", anymore when we pull out a calculator and look at the real cost, does it?

"Yeah, but with extended drain synthetic oils like AMSOIL and the few others, you're spending a lot more money because those synthetic oils cost so much! I'm nobodies fool!"

Well, okay, that's a good thing.

A leading top quality extended drain synthetic oil is AMSOIL that will go up to 25,000 miles and at retail prices sells for $10.15 per quart x 4 quarts = $40.60 along with their extended drain oil filter that's good for 15,000 miles selling at a retail price of $14.95 = an oil change price of $55.55 per oil change x 7% sales tax = $59.44 per oil change, plus say about $10 to have UPS bring it to your front door = $69.44 per oil change.


"Wow, what insane, brainwashed person would pay such a high price?! That's a rip off! You'd have to be on drugs to pay that! Plus, pay UPS charges? ROFLMAO! "


Someone who knows how to use a calculator would pay that.

265,000 miles divided by 15,000 mile oil change intervals = only 18 oil changes x $69.44 each = $1,249.92 in oil change costs.

In the petroleum oil change cost from above, this means the high quality synthetic AMSOIL motor oil has saved from $633 - $930 in oil change costs.

"But the petroleum oili has a lower price, so it must cost less! You're calculator must be broken!"

18 oil changes vs 88 oil changes. This isn't rocket science. Break out the calculator.

Then there's the fuel economy increase a top quality synthetic oil like AMSOIL offers, which is usually in the 2-5% range, sometimes more.

"2-5%?! Oh come on man! You've got to be kidding me! lol Who cares about a measly 2-5%?! That's nothing!"

Okay, if you say so.

265,000 miles divided by an average of say 30 mpg = 8,833 gallons of gas x the going rate of about $4.00 a gallon now = a fuel cost of $35,332!

"Really?! Wow, I had no idea it added up to such a huge amount of money!"

30 mpg x a 2% fuel economy increase = 30.60 mpg. 265,000 miles divided by 30.6 mpg = 8,660 gallons x $4.00 per gallon = a fuel cost of $34,640, which is a savings of $692 the high quality synthetic oil has provided! Hmmm...that's not so, "measly", of a savings after all, is it?

30 mpg x a 5% fuel economy increase = 31.5 mpg. 265,000 miles divided by 31.5 mpg = 8,412 gallons of gas x $4.00 per gallon = $33,648, a fuel cost savings of $1,684 that the high quality synthetic oil has provided vs the dead dinosaur oil.

So in this example, when we add the savings of reduced oil change costs and a mild increase in fuel economy, the "expensive" high quality synthetic oil delivers, we have a total cost savings vs cheap petroleum oils of between $1,325 - $2,614!

"Wow, that petroleum oil sure costs an awful lot! I'm glad you showed me this! I'm going to be saving a lot of money! Thank you!"

My pleasure, (putting down calculator).

When we throw in all the other benefits of using a quality synthetic oil, like easier cold winter engine starts, all the time and hassle saved in unneeded oil changes, an internally cleaner engine, lower emissions, more power/better throttle response, superior high temperature engine protection, reduced engine operating temperatures, etc., I don't understand why anyone uses petroleum oils anymore.

Burn up some calculator batteries. The facts don't lie.

A tragic case of a motorist who's stuck in the 1960's or worse -

"I don't like them thar new-fangled expensive ra-dial tires! Bias-ply tires are good enough to get a car down the road just as well! Oh, those fancy-schmancy ABS disc brakes? You don't need those! Drum brakes are just fine! Fuel injection units? Are you nuts?! Do you have any idea how expensive they are to fix?! Use a carburetor and save money!"

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BlueFocusSE5 View Post
One of the most intelligent, well put posts here. Thank you.

As to why excessive oil changes can cause engine damage; every single time the oil is changed, the engine oiling system loses its prime and when the engine is started there is zero oil pressure and metal-to-metal contact going on inside the engine that it never see's at any other time in its life. That kind of wear can rob life from an engine and reduce it's operating efficiency and longevity. It wont run, "like new", for as long as it could have. Excessive oil changes are not doing any engine a favor. Of course, the greedy big oil industry likes to siphon off consumers hard earned money if they can, but consumer groups called them on this and even the greedy big oil companies are now no longer recommending needless and wasteful 3,000 mile drain pain intervals.
so if i run my car for a few minutes to warm the oil and then change it takig 10 minutes, that in that 10 min period every drop of oil has come out of the engine? There is no longer any oil anywhere at all? and if u put oil in the filter before you put it on its not primed? how if this any different than starting up after the car has sat there for a period of time?
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:02 PM   #36
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Change my oil every 4,500-5,000 miles and average 32ish mpg. Might want to redo your math.

Prime example of why not to listen to this synthetic shenanigans. Anyone who pushes that much and takes that much time to explain it more than likely has something to gain. Never take advise from someone who will gain from it.

Oh and this cost crap. Local shop charges $30 for dino change $90 for synthetic change. So synthetic cost 3 times as much at that shop and I can go 3 times the miles but synthetic will save me money? Makes perfect sense!

Im out.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by tjboston5676 View Post
so if i run my car for a few minutes to warm the oil and then change it takig 10 minutes, that in that 10 min period every drop of oil has come out of the engine? There is no longer any oil anywhere at all? and if u put oil in the filter before you put it on its not primed? how if this any different than starting up after the car has sat there for a period of time?
No, not at all. Most all of the oil pressure is lost, which is why an engine makes clattering noises on initial start up after an oil change and that noise is damaging metal-to-metal wear going on because of virtually zero oil pressure. The additional problem of having quite a bit of old, contaminated oil left inside the engine to combine with and contaminate the new oil being poured into the engine, is a one-two punch for the engine to get hit with. Ten minutes isn't near enough time to allow the old oil to drain out of the engine. Up to about 1/2 quart more old, contaminated oil will drain out of an engine if allowed to continue draining for an hour or so. Not allowing enough time for the old, contaminated oil to drain out of the engine before pouring new oil into it, is tantamount to taking a shower with your underwear on. This does an engine no favors.

Even with a primed oil filter, that doesn't eliminate dry starts with virtually zero oil pressure. It does help to reduce it a bit, but not eliminate it. If dry starts after an oil change didn't present a problem, some people wouldn't be bothering to prime the oil filter. A vehicle sitting for a period of time doesn't remove oil pressure from the oiling system, not unless the oil filter used is so cheap that it doesn't even have an anti-drain back valve. Excessive oil changes isn't doing an engine any favors.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by xxMichaelAnthony View Post
Change my oil every 4,500-5,000 miles and average 32ish mpg. Might want to redo your math.

Prime example of why not to listen to this synthetic shenanigans. Anyone who pushes that much and takes that much time to explain it more than likely has something to gain. Never take advise from someone who will gain from it.

Oh and this cost crap. Local shop charges $30 for dino change $90 for synthetic change. So synthetic cost 3 times as much at that shop and I can go 3 times the miles but synthetic will save me money? Makes perfect sense!

Im out.
Oh, so now it's $30 per oil change for dead dinosaur oil? Is that including tax? Okay. 265,000 miles divided by 5,000 mile drain intervals = 53 oil changes X $30 per oil change = $1,590 for cheap petroleum oil change costs. Still far more costly than the high quality synthetic oil and that's not even factoring in the improved fuel economy a top quality synthetic oil typically delivers. Those are the facts my friend and facts reveal the truth, instead of the mis-truths of ignorance.

Whatever auto center is charging you that much for oil changes, you're getting hammered hard. Shop around and start using lower cost extended drain synthetic oils and save your money.

You had said.
Quote:
My car has 265,000. Has never had waste of money synthetic in it. With a good filter and proper change intervals for the quality of oil you're using, it'll run forever. Don't fall for all that "research" saying synthetic is better. It's all bias so they can get better deals from their oil distributers.
You're, "wasting", money on cheap, standard drain petroleum oils, as the scientific cost analysis I submitted has clearly demonstrated. I'm sorry, but that's a fact.

Yes, you're out, because the calculator has proven that regular drain interval petroleum oils are not a lower cost choice than top quality extended drain synthetic oils, at all.

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:15 AM   #39
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Mobile 1 full synthetic high mileage - $30 at walmart for 5 quart jug.
Motorcraft oil filter (focus) -Walmart around $6 or 8 bucks.
I've got my own oil pan, ramps, and oil filter wrench.
takes about half an hour.
so on average half an hour and at most 38 bucks every 7 or 8k miles.
you do the math.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:42 AM   #40
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$90 for a synthetic oild change? That's rediculous and I changed both my 4Riunner and Focus with synthetic and spent less than $70 for both.

I am comfortable with changing my synthetic once a year (cars have about 4-6000 miles each at the change) but with my very raced turbo Eclipse I was changing the synthetic about every 4000 miles since it was a high severe duty drive nearly all the time.
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