Retrofit AGS (Kysor Active Grille Radiator Shutters)

[Scott02]

Originally Posted by Scott02

Fuel economy, shorter warm up time, and to be sure that the engine is running in closed loop temp control when I'm driving in ~0degF temps (running in open loop temp control is a problem with the super-efficient, non-heat-generating, VW TDI engines).

I used my scangauge today to confirm that when it's cold out, our Foci never reach operating temperature!

EDIT
...To keep my questions and information easier to find, I moved my scangauge data into my original post...

[feta_mgp]

Originally Posted by kam327

But why are you expecting a 3mpg gain from the shutters if the EPA rating is only 2 mpg higher, and that's with the use of lower rolling resistance tires and aero wheel covers? So if the combination of the shutters and wheels/tires gives you a 2mpg gain, I don't think you can expect more than 1mpg from the shutters alone.

If my car would get anywhere NEAR the EPA rating with the shutters I'd be interested. It seems no matter what, the BEST I've ever gotten, ALL highway, was 34mpg. NEVER have I gotten a tank to average more than that, even though my EPA rating is supposed to be 38 hwy. So... if my car was EPA tested WITH the shutters and I end up at 34 on AVERAGE instead of the 29-30 I get now, I'd be pleased.

Besides, how do you know it's only going to net 1mpg? Have you done the conversion yourself? I would like to think that the design behind them is capable of more than 1mpg gains over not having them, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a reason to invest in their development and implementation.

[kam327]

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

If my car would get anywhere NEAR the EPA rating with the shutters I'd be interested. It seems no matter what, the BEST I've ever gotten, ALL highway, was 34mpg. NEVER have I gotten a tank to average more than that, even though my EPA rating is supposed to be 38 hwy. So... if my car was EPA tested WITH the shutters and I end up at 34 on AVERAGE instead of the 29-30 I get now, I'd be pleased.

Besides, how do you know it's only going to net 1mpg? Have you done the conversion yourself? I would like to think that the design behind them is capable of more than 1mpg gains over not having them, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a reason to invest in their development and implementation.

Well there's a documented 2mpg gain through the use of the shutters, LRR tires, aero wheel covers, spoiler, and omission of Select Shift. Do you think the shutters are responsible for all of that gain and the rest is a waste? I was merely giving the shutters credit for half that gain, and even that may be being overly generous.

[feta_mgp]

Originally Posted by kam327

Well there's a documented 2mpg gain through the use of the shutters, LRR tires, aero wheel covers, spoiler, and omission of Select Shift. Do you think the shutters are responsible for all of that gain and the rest is a waste? I was merely giving the shutters credit for half that gain, and even that may be being overly generous.

The shutters are not only available on the SFE package though. The 2mpg gain is in all reality due only to the LRR tires, wheel covers and spoiler. SelectShift has nothing to do with it.

The shutters are available and were supposedly standard on several if not all Foci (now it's all, not in 2011) and were most likely part of the EPA testing procedure as well. So I think expecting decent gains from them is entirely plausible. They reduce drag at highway speeds and bring the engine up to operating temp more efficiently. These two things alone I can imagine having a decent impact.

[kam327]

Originally Posted by Scott02

Annnnd my gut feeling was correct!
I used my scangauge today to confirm that when it's cold out, our Foci never reach operating temperature!

Data from my ride to work is as follows: 25degF outside temp
Engine was <121degF until i hit a 55mph zone 6 miles from my house.
150degF after driving for 8 miles at 55mph, atop a big hill
168degF at 10 miles in 45mph zone
188degF at 14 miles after some more 55mph
198degF at 16 miles after a large uphill at 55mph
196degF at 18 miles previous to the 25mph zone
189degF at 21 miles after driving 25mph for a little while and parking in the lot. (With very little load, the car actually started to cool back down!)

Trip home is as follows: 41degF outside temp
After around 2 miles of driving at 55mph, the temp was up to 195-ish degF.

And that's at 25degF...
Imagine how much fuel we're wasting at 0degF or lower!
THIS is why I want to install AGS!

Neat. Learn something new everyday. But what are the ill effects of operating at 10-20 degrees below max? Anticipating you will say reduced fuel economy, how much?

[kam327]

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

The shutters are not only available on the SFE package though. The 2mpg gain is in all reality due only to the LRR tires, wheel covers and spoiler.

The shutters are available and were supposedly standard on several if not all Foci (now it's all, not in 2011) and were most likely part of the EPA testing procedure as well.

Ha ha ha. Soooo, you're saying that Ford didn't install the shudders on many Foci for the '12 model year, but took credit for them in the EPA ratings for all Foci anyway? And risked a Hyundai style media fiasco? Seriously doubt it my friend.

No, I think the logical deduction is that the EPA ratings for non SFE models did not take into account the shutters and those cars that got them anyway just got an added bonus.

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

SelectShift has nothing to do with it.

Incorrect. You will recall that the '12 base SEs were rated 28/38, but stepping up to the Sport package, which added SelectShift, reduced the ratings to 27/37.

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

So I think expecting decent gains from them is entirely plausible. They reduce drag at highway speeds and bring the engine up to operating temp more efficiently. These two things alone I can imagine having a decent impact.

Imagine all you want. That's what a dark room is for. I was simply asking the OP what his/her justification was. I believe it will be hard to prove a reasonable payback justification.

[kam327]

But hey, don't take my word for it....

The Eco Cruze utilizes an innovative automatic air shutter system that closes the grill vents at higher speeds to reduce drag by .016 – adding .5 mpg and helping push the Cruze to the magic 40 mpg number.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/11...hutter-grille/

[feta_mgp]

Originally Posted by kam327

Ha ha ha. Soooo, you're saying that Ford didn't install the shudders on many Foci for the '12 model year, but took credit for them in the EPA ratings for all Foci anyway? And risked a Hyundai style media fiasco? Seriously doubt it my friend.

No, I think the logical deduction is that the EPA ratings for non SFE models did not take into account the shutters and those cars that got them anyway just got an added bonus.



Incorrect. You will recall that the '12 base SEs were rated 28/38, but stepping up to the Sport package, which added SelectShift, reduced the ratings to 27/37.



Imagine all you want. That's what a dark room is for. I was simply asking the OP what his/her justification was. I believe it will be hard to prove a reasonable payback justification.

I recall just fine how they were rated and I'm sure that if you DROVE in SelectShift all the time your mileage would suffer, justifying the lower number. However the gearing and transmission are the same... adding a feature that allows the driver more precise control isn't going to cause any difference unless the feature is used. Don't use SelectShift, don't affect mileage.

Unless you KNOW that Ford didn't include AGSs in their EPA tests, then you too are in your own dark room telling me I'm wrong without proving that you're right.

I'd bet that your SFE gains are due to tires and aero covers more than they're due to the AGS, because the AGS is probably already taken into account, as it was SUPPOSED to be present on the cars.

So, as an example, why wouldn't the Titanium have better fuel economy numbers if they're standard with AGS? You think Ford is going to omit possible gains and just let the driver have the bonus rather than capitalize on being able to put a 40mpg tag on a Titanium rather than a 37mpg tag? Seriously doubt it my friend, not when fuel economy is such a buying point these days. That 2-3mpg difference makes all the difference with some buyers. There's NO reason Ford would omit any kind of gains possible. And if they did originally, once AGS was standard on all models you can bet they would have updated that number, too.

EDIT: not to mention, by your logic, if Ford posted EPA ratings with AGS as part of the testing process and they're only good for 1mpg anyway, than they wouldn't be facing any kind of Hyundai-esque fiasco because the difference would be negligible.

[suss6052]

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

I recall just fine how they were rated and I'm sure that if you DROVE in SelectShift all the time your mileage would suffer, justifying the lower number. However the gearing and transmission are the same... adding a feature that allows the driver more precise control isn't going to cause any difference unless the feature is used. Don't use SelectShift, don't affect mileage.

If you only used the automatic sport mode all the time your mileage could suffer due to locking the car out of 6th gear, but if you know how to drive a manual and shift gears already your mileage would actually improve or at worst stay the same. However per the test conditions they had to shift through certain gears at a given time which is counter to the car being left in automatic mode alone.

[kam327]

Originally Posted by feta_mgp

Unless you KNOW that Ford didn't include AGSs in their EPA tests, then you too are in your own dark room telling me I'm wrong without proving that you're right.

I'd bet that your SFE gains are due to tires and aero covers more than they're due to the AGS, because the AGS is probably already taken into account, as it was SUPPOSED to be present on the cars.

I already gave you my reasoning, but I'll reiterate for you. Ford would not have taken credit for a technology responsible for 2-3mpg increase, as you claim, in their EPA ratings and then NOT included that technology in EVERY car they applied those EPA numbers to. It would've opened them to huge financial liability, as shown recently in the Hyundai / Kia case. Understand?

Now, back on topic, as for the REAL affect of adding the shudders, you say it's 2-3 mpg right? Well I just posted an article that stated that Chevy claims a 0.5mpg increase when used in the Cruze. And here's another article that states the following:

1) Ford says they reduce CO2 emissions by 2%. If we can assume that relates directly to a 2% decrease in fuel consumption, that means an increase from 31mpg to 31.6mpg, a 0.6mpg increase, consistent with the Cruze claim.

2) The effect of the shutters on the Malibu's drag coefficient was 0.007. That's a paltry 2.5% reduction.

3) The Ram's shutters improve fuel economy by 0.5%. So maybe in increase from 23 mpg to 23.1mpg.

http://www.thestar.com/wheels/articl...d-fuel-economy

Now I invite you to go out and find some 3rd party claims or data that support your 3mpg theory......