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Old 01-04-2013, 09:06 PM   #31
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Society of automotive engineers? My kind of people.

Here's a powerpoint presentation of the paper (nice pictures and bullet with main points without being too technical). This is good stuff.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...TIHGjoUNVgIU8A

I decided to add clifFor Sale:

They added port fuel injected gas to a DI high compression motor (one example was the v6 ecoboost with higher compression) to try and get better use of the E85 by only using it in a direct injection way to suppress knock (keep temps lower).

So...basically for idle and cruise you use mainly gas, and when cylinder pressures rise (you have your foot in it), you use the E85. This way you get good economy and lower emissions. Sounds kinda complicated though with two fuel systems.

Interesting tidbits are the quoted octane numbers for ethanol and the fact that they are getting closer to a possibility of a high compression FI motor that would have similar fuel economy to a lower compression regular gas only motor.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanace View Post
enginejoe... I am really tired of reading your lust for ethonol. Read this. It is old... but accurate. I really think your a corn farmer in disguise.
http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
1turbofocus is too profesional to say it so I will.... ethonol is a pink elephant. You get less energy per gallon, cost is high... and you need to modify existing platforms to make it work. Geez get a clue! It isn't even close to being worth the cost involved. Plus it uses up our FOOD source for crying out loud. AND it produces more smog.
I'm tired of reading about how everyone and their mother hates E85 on this site. Damn near every other automotive platform enthusiast group has seen the benefits of E85 as a race fuel and adopted ways to use it. But the focus community seems to he behind the times on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enginjoe View Post
Society of automotive engineers? My kind of people.

Here's a powerpoint presentation of the paper (nice pictures and bullet with main points without being too technical). This is good stuff.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...TIHGjoUNVgIU8A

I decided to add clifFor Sale:

They added port fuel injected gas to a DI high compression motor (one example was the v6 ecoboost with higher compression) to try and get better use of the E85 by only using it in a direct injection way to suppress knock (keep temps lower).

So...basically for idle and cruise you use mainly gas, and when cylinder pressures rise (you have your foot in it), you use the E85. This way you get good economy and lower emissions. Sounds kinda complicated though with two fuel systems.

Interesting tidbits are the quoted octane numbers for ethanol and the fact that they are getting closer to a possibility of a high compression FI motor that would have similar fuel economy to a lower compression regular gas only motor.
Now that's what I want to read. I've been running E in mine for a few weeks, and it seems to love it. Factory ECM made some slight tweaks to timing and AFRs and it seems to pull just a Tad bit harder. Its no ST but I feel the car still takes advantage of it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:12 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
I'm tired of reading about how everyone and their mother hates E85 on this site. Damn near every other automotive platform enthusiast group has seen the benefits of E85 as a race fuel and adopted ways to use it. But the focus community seems to he behind the times on that.

Now that's what I want to read. I've been running E in mine for a few weeks, and it seems to love it. Factory ECM made some slight tweaks to timing and AFRs and it seems to pull just a Tad bit harder. Its no ST but I feel the car still takes advantage of it.
E85 can be a beautiful thing. Your car has a MAF while ST is speed density tuned. Totally different beast...
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:22 PM   #34
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From my understanding the ST is not designed to run E85. I would have tuned my old 05 ST to it but I was not going to drive 25 miles one way every time I needed fuel.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #35
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I don't understand e85
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
I'm tired of reading about how everyone and their mother hates E85 on this site. Damn near every other automotive platform enthusiast group has seen the benefits of E85 as a race fuel and adopted ways to use it. But the focus community seems to he behind the times on that.



Now that's what I want to read. I've been running E in mine for a few weeks, and it seems to love it. Factory ECM made some slight tweaks to timing and AFRs and it seems to pull just a Tad bit harder. Its no ST but I feel the car still takes advantage of it.


Fact: gallon for gallon e85 has less power than gasoline. (BTU's) Fact: e85 is corrosive to normal fuel systems. Fact: direct injection engines will maximise gasoline over e85 better than efi systems, so there is no benifit to using e85. Fact: using e85 is conciderd severe driving and increases service intervals= extra costs. Fact: making e85 is using corn. A MAJOR food source. I don't want my food prices rising becuse of SUPID technology. Fact: e85 increases smog production. How about not supporting big governments STUPID policies and support our God given rights to live free? Hippie liberals go home
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:51 PM   #37
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lol, that's good stuff, only thing I have to ask, not supporting e85 or against it because I could honestly care less, but can you cite your facts?
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanace View Post
Fact: gallon for gallon e85 has less power than gasoline. (BTU's) Fact: e85 is corrosive to normal fuel systems. Fact: direct injection engines will maximise gasoline over e85 better than efi systems, so there is no benifit to using e85. Fact: using e85 is conciderd severe driving and increases service intervals= extra costs. Fact: making e85 is using corn. A MAJOR food source. I don't want my food prices rising becuse of SUPID technology. Fact: e85 increases smog production. How about not supporting big governments STUPID policies and support our God given rights to live free? Hippie liberals go home
Bold is not true, exxageration or just conjecture.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:21 PM   #39
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Bold is not true, exxageration or just conjecture.
Do your own research. I owned a 2007 F-150 that was flex fuel. It required severe duty maintenance schedual if you used E85. You used to have to order flex fuel vehicles with that option. They obviously did something different to the fuel system to make it more durable. The forums on the subject concour that they had to use stainless steel to keep corrosion away. Making ethonol is taking corn and making alchol with it. It taks A LOT of corn to make alchohol. That cuts into our food supply because corn is used for so much of what we eat besides other chemicals. Just logic and common sense. There is less BTU's in ethonol. That is a no brainer.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:13 PM   #40
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Corrosion: because the alcohol in ethanol corrodes aluminum, FFV components are made of stainless steel and E85 pumps must be modified or manufactured with stainless steel to prevent corrosion. Repeated exposure to E85 also corrodes the metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline.
Cold starts: because E85 has a higher freezing temperature than gasoline, there may be cold start problems in severe cold weather. For that reason, ethanol content is lowered to a minimum of 70 percent ethanol in freezing weather conditions.
Limited to light vehicles: due to its physical properties, ethanol is generally limited to gasoline blends for passenger vehicles and light trucks, while heavy-duty vehicles are diesel-fueled. Current researchers are experimenting with E-diesel, a blend of fuel ethanol and petroleum diesel.

Environmental Concerns
Growing corn requires a significant amount of water, fertilizer and pesticides, which can have a negative impact on the environment. On average, farmers use about 134 pounds of nitrogen fertilizer per acre of corn each year. Some potential cellulosic energy crops can be drought-tolerant and use less water than corn. Ethanol is biodegradable, so accidental spills pose few risks to the environment.
Food Versus Fuel
There is a growing "food versus fuel" debate as the cost for corn spirals upward due to high demand. High corn prices are good for farmers, but bad for livestock producers and consumers, because so many products are made from corn. Texas has a large livestock industry, and high feed prices affect it. This debate has generated increased interest in cellulosic ethanol.

Link to where the above came from and I could get hundreds more , for the engineer in here , you should know all this already and not calling the guy on so I though I would post some proof http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol.htm

Now to more e85 facts
Higher RON in the fuel blend would enable greater thermal efficiency in future engines through higher compression ratio (CR) and/or more aggressive turbocharging and downsizing, and in current engines on the road today through more aggressive spark timing under some driving conditions.

Using a linear molar octane blending model they had developed earlier to quantify RON potential from ethanol and blendstock, the team estimated that an increase of 4-7 points in RON are possible by blending in an additional 10–20%v ethanol above the 10% already present. Keeping the blendstock RON at 88 (which provides E10 with ∼92.5 RON), they estimated RON would be increased to 94.3 for E15 to as much as 98.6 for E30. Further RON increases may be achievable assuming changes to the blendstock RON and/or hydrocarbon composition, they suggested.

An increase in blendstock RON from 88 to 92 would increase the RON of E10 from 92.5 to 95.6, and would provide higher RON with additional ethanol content (e.g., RON of 97.1 for E15 to 100.6 for E30).

Under scenarios considered in the paper, the team estimated CR increases to be on the order of 1–3 CR-units for port fuel injection engines as well as for direct injection engines in which the greater evaporative cooling of ethanol can be fully utilized

From :http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012...-20120406.html

No manufacture of "E" fuels will tell what octane there blending with so you can figure what fuel your using , now some states are running 85 octane fuels regularly (http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...s-in-your-fuel), and why they are not required to post octanes on the pumps for E85 , what makes people think there not using 78 octane to make e85 , or 72 , the lower the octane blended the cheaper to make octane fuel

The key word is the "blendstock" they wont even call it fuel any more there mixing and even stat that the "blendstock" / fuel octanes are/could be lower or higher which changes the outcome of the loosely use octane of the final product

It amazes me that people using it or educated people claiming to know a lot about it still feel its the higher octane that adds the benefits why its the greater evaporative cooling of ethanol as by cooling the charge lowers the chance of knock to the point of low quality "blendstock" is used and you get a lower octane fuel substitute

vance I 100% agree with you on your thoughts , most of your statments are spot on and I though I would post facts to back up your post and where they can read them

I have tuned many many "E" cars over the years , I have seen first hand cars go out with 100% 0 knock and come back with another tank and have 3-5 deg of knock using the knock sensors , it is an unregulated fuel and until its regulated they will use junk fuel to make it and that's not even taking into account the amount of water "E" fuels get into them , how the "E" fuel have to be belended just before shipping as the octane drops over time fast and I could go one and on but you will still get the guys that think its a "higher octane race fuel" LOL

The above link , which is a joke read and means nothing for "E85" testing talks about E100 and 91-93 octane fuels which was also paid for my Ford and AVL which are paid by the oil companys , give me E100 at the pumps and I will run it ALL DAY LONG , E100 is a regulated fuel and controlled by big brother just like 93 octane is , E85 is unregulated do the math and see where you would be if the "blendstock" was 85 or 78 or 72 , yep now your getting it

Tom
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