SCT doesn't want our money - Page 6

darkangelism · 12-06-2012, 10:18 AM

How many ST tunes have been sold? a dozen? a hundred? a thousand?

How many units would you need guaranteed to make it a viable market? What if we paid upfront for development 10k, 50k, 100k?

JL330 · 12-06-2012, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac.mogul

I think it would be cheaper and easier to just trade your '12 in on an ST and pay the difference.

Having my mustang on my insurance already, I can't have 2 performance cars on it. I like the cheap payment and insurance on my S model.

amoosenamedhank · 12-06-2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyn085

In regards to your ST/Non discussion, what percentage of ST owners do you think actually will tune their vehicle? While the overall percentage is definitively higher, the overall number (strictly my assumption) is probably lower. Realistically, many people whom can afford the ST (in the grand scheme of life, outside of people fanatical about the Focus) are going to pay a few thousand dollars more and step into the Mustang GT. Most of the people that will want to tune a Focus are going to fall into the crowd of people whom couldn't afford the ST and stepped into a lower N/A model, but want to dump a few thousand dollars more into getting nearer to ST performance.

I would tend to disagree with you here. The ST's sales numbers will obviously be lower than the N/A focus; however I honestly believe there were be more tuning solutions sold to the ST market than the N/A market by a long shot.

I don't think the mustang vs ST argument is all that valid either. If that was the case, the MS3 wouldn't have the sales numbers it has.

If you stroll through msf.org, you'll see a surprisingly large number of people that have purchased a tuning solution. I believe the same will be said for the ST. People buy the ST because it's a fun, practical car that will have great aftermarket support.

I see N/A focuses EVERYWHERE. You literally can't drive to the gas station with out seeing at least one. The caveat to that is, 90% of them are mid-aged women.

I think some people get a little too caught up in the forum and think their market is larger than it is. Really outside of this forum, there will be very few people who would ever even consider using a tuning solution on their car. Take a public pole and see how many you actually come up with. Then you'll more than likely need to cut at least a 1/3 of the people out of that because you will inherently have people voting with dreams instead of cash in mind.

I think you would be shocked by the relatively low number of people who would actually buy a tuning solution for this vehicle. Sure, there will be an initial surge of forum members, however after that, they'd be lucky to sell 5 a month. I certainly don't mean to talk poorly of this forum, but it took me a while to adjust to this environment. If you've spent any amount of time on another tech/enthusiast site, you'll realize just how small this market really is. I can honestly check this forum once a week and I'll still find the same threads on the front page. Hell, if you scroll to the bottom of the home page there are still threads from Oct there.

The flip side to this will be people saying if a tuning solution was available that more bolt ons will come. Maybe, the overall population of people who will be willing to mod this car to that level won't change.

I would probably put myself in the category of individuals who wouldn't pay to tune this car. That's not why I bought it. I have my background of modding/tuning vehicles and one day I will get back to it. However, for what this car represents, it's really not worth it.

The truth hurts, but that's the reality of it. As ECU get harder to crack, the need to be more selective with your resources becomes immediately apparent. The days of offering tuning solutions for everyone might be over. With this in mind, I would definitely research your next automotive purchase if modding/tuning is in your interest.

RonMaiden · 12-06-2012, 11:10 AM

Good post moosenamedhank and that's pretty much how I view things too having been in the modding and racing scene for 20 years and the percentage of actual true enthusiasts is quite small compared to the number of cars sold. The 4Runner forums are the same too with very few actual owners going off road or modding a truck to do so when the actual percentage of owners to actually go that far is usually in the single digits.

***dyn085*** · 12-06-2012, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank

I would tend to disagree with you here. The ST's sales numbers will obviously be lower than the N/A focus; however I honestly believe there were be more tuning solutions sold to the ST market than the N/A market by a long shot.

I don't think the mustang vs ST argument is all that valid either. If that was the case, the MS3 wouldn't have the sales numbers it has.

If you stroll through msf.org, you'll see a surprisingly large number of people that have purchased a tuning solution. I believe the same will be said for the ST. People buy the ST because it's a fun, practical car that will have great aftermarket support.

I see N/A focuses EVERYWHERE. You literally can't drive to the gas station with out seeing at least one. The caveat to that is, 90% of them are mid-aged women.

I think some people get a little too caught up in the forum and think their market is larger than it is. Really outside of this forum, there will be very few people who would ever even consider using a tuning solution on their car. Take a public pole and see how many you actually come up with. Then you'll more than likely need to cut at least a 1/3 of the people out of that because you will inherently have people voting with dreams instead of cash in mind.

I think you would be shocked by the relatively low number of people who would actually buy a tuning solution for this vehicle. Sure, there will be an initial surge of forum members, however after that, they'd be lucky to sell 5 a month. I certainly don't mean to talk poorly of this forum, but it took me a while to adjust to this environment. If you've spent any amount of time on another tech/enthusiast site, you'll realize just how small this market really is. I can honestly check this forum once a week and I'll still find the same threads on the front page. Hell, if you scroll to the bottom of the home page there are still threads from Oct there.

The flip side to this will be people saying if a tuning solution was available that more bolt ons will come. Maybe, the overall population of people who will be willing to mod this car to that level won't change.

I would probably put myself in the category of individuals who wouldn't pay to tune this car. That's not why I bought it. I have my background of modding/tuning vehicles and one day I will get back to it. However, for what this car represents, it's really not worth it.

The truth hurts, but that's the reality of it. As ECU get harder to crack, the need to be more selective with your resources becomes immediately apparent. The days of offering tuning solutions for everyone might be over. With this in mind, I would definitely research your next automotive purchase if modding/tuning is in your interest.

I understand your position, but this isn't my first Focus. Just the first one without a tune. Had I known a tune wouldn't be available, I wouldn't have bought it. No, I'm not a speedracer. I just want to be able to have control over my components and make my car better than stock, that's all. If the future were researchable, then I guess I would have looked into it but whatever answer I would have gotten would negate this entire thread in one direction or another. In the end, I just want my car to be distinctly mine.

And as I stated further up in my post, I understand that it wouldn't be a huge market. Like I said, only SCT has the actual numbers to compare. Neither you or I can even come close to debating it because we have no hard sales numbers. You can state what you see on a forum, but that is such a small minority of an overall population that it negates the actual issue. And for all I know, maybe SCT has looked at the numbers and you are correct that it is pointless for them to continue to go on with our market. In that case, I just live with my clunky Fo-Fo and go without a tune.

I respect your decision to not want to tune. I am a single father and this is my only mode of transportation. Coincidentally, it is the exact car that I wanted under the assumption that there would be a small but reliable aftermarket following it to make it the way I want. I'm not in the boat of those demanding that SCT creates a tune, I simply want a solid and believable yes or no. Nothing more, nothing less.

As an aside- Don't you think that the threads would move the way they did a year ago if the aftermarket were supporting the Focus? A year ago threads would get buried nearly in the span of hours. Once everyone figured out the car and individual companies started turning their backs on the Mk3, the interest waned. Exactly as TiStick said, chicken or the egg. It's definitive that we cannot safely move any further forward without tuning.

***iminhell*** · 12-06-2012, 11:40 AM

In years past, tuning wasn't all ECU based. I myself fooled my ECU for years until I could get a proper tune on the car. I understood what the car was doing in stock form, I somewhat knew how to fool it and I took steps to make sure I wasn't doing too much harm to it.
There are always ways to tune W/O computer intervention. You just have to play on the failure limitations in the factory programming, generally 25%+/-. But shooting lower would be safer, say 10-15%+/-.

How do MAFS work?
How do injectors work?
How do spark plugs work?

There are ways to tune every car if you understand.

amoosenamedhank · 12-06-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyn085

I understand your position, but this isn't my first Focus. Just the first one without a tune. Had I known a tune wouldn't be available, I wouldn't have bought it. No, I'm not a speedracer. I just want to be able to have control over my components and make my car better than stock, that's all. If the future were researchable, then I guess I would have looked into it but whatever answer I would have gotten would negate this entire thread in one direction or another. In the end, I just want my car to be distinctly mine.

And as I stated further up in my post, I understand that it wouldn't be a huge market. Like I said, only SCT has the actual numbers to compare. Neither you or I can even come close to debating it because we have no hard sales numbers. You can state what you see on a forum, but that is such a small minority of an overall population that it negates the actual issue. And for all I know, maybe SCT has looked at the numbers and you are correct that it is pointless for them to continue to go on with our market. In that case, I just live with my clunky Fo-Fo and go without a tune.

I respect your decision to not want to tune. I am a single father and this is my only mode of transportation. Coincidentally, it is the exact car that I wanted under the assumption that there would be a small but reliable aftermarket following it to make it the way I want. I'm not in the boat of those demanding that SCT creates a tune, I simply want a solid and believable yes or no. Nothing more, nothing less.

As an aside- Don't you think that the threads would move the way they did a year ago if the aftermarket were supporting the Focus? A year ago threads would get buried nearly in the span of hours. Once everyone figured out the car and individual companies started turning their backs on the Mk3, the interest waned. Exactly as TiStick said, chicken or the egg. It's definitive that we cannot safely move any further forward without tuning.

No, I obviously don't have any hard statistical data but I've seen this exact same recipe on different platforms.

Yes this forum is a very small percentage of overall N/A focus owners, however I think it is a very large percentage of owners who would ever entertain the idea of modding their car.

I don't discredit you or anyone else who wants a tune. I fully understand that desire. I guess you can't blame a guy for trying.

People are slamming their door down demanding a tune and justifying this with how much money they could make. If the money was truly as good as people claimed, don't you think SCT would have already done it?

If I was their sales director and I saw any potential in this large market of cars, I would have jumped on it immediately.

You have to recognize the awkward position SCT is in. You never want to completely close the door on a market. At the same time, that doesn't mean you just don't have the time or resources to handle the job now.

I think this is their way of saying, 'yes we see you, no we don't want to completely say no, but this isn't happening any time soon.'

I can't fault them for trying to run a profitable business. If the shoe doesn't fit....

darkangelism · 12-06-2012, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank

No, I obviously don't have any hard statistical data but I've seen this exact same recipe on different platforms.

Yes this forum is a very small percentage of overall N/A focus owners, however I think it is a very large percentage of owners who would ever entertain the idea of modding their car.

I don't discredit you or anyone else who wants a tune. I fully understand that desire. I guess you can't blame a guy for trying.

People are slamming their door down demanding a tune and justifying this with how much money they could make. If the money was truly as good as people claimed, don't you think SCT would have already done it?

If I was their sales director and I saw any potential in this large market of cars, I would have jumped on it immediately.

You have to recognize the awkward position SCT is in. You never want to completely close the door on a market. At the same time, that doesn't mean you just don't have the time or resources to handle the job now.

I think this is their way of saying, 'yes we see you, no we don't want to completely say no, but this isn't happening any time soon.'

I can't fault them for trying to run a profitable business. If the shoe doesn't fit....

Then we do they have tuning for the taurus, edge, escape, flex, fusion, those are not enthusiast vehicles either with a smaller market that then focus.

TiStick · 12-06-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkangelism

Then we do they have tuning for the taurus, edge, escape, flex, fusion, those are not enthusiast vehicles either with a smaller market that then focus.

Those vehicles are probably driven by middle aged women 90% of the time.