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Old 10-03-2012, 08:53 PM   #61
hotleadsingerguy
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Coming from an engineer, I love talking to customers and repair technicians on issues - and they love it too. But marketing says we "lack social skills" or something. Plus, we usually tell them too much. Then word gets out (for example) that "every clutch on every 2012 Focus is bad" and it ends up costing the company too much money. That's why they keep us locked in the basement.

Note: That was just an example - I don't work for Ford. I am, however an engineer stuck working in a basement with desks/cubicle walls from 1970 while the people upstairs are on like... their 4th remodel since 2000.
I understand that lol I've been with companies like that. The software company I'm with now is the exact opposite -- I'm in QA and pretty much as soon as Tech Support realizes they can't answer the question they come to us or development. It's fantastic. It makes the customers *much* more happy and keeps me busy!

And definitely check out "The IT Crowd". One of the most funny shows on television (it's on Netflix).
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:23 PM   #62
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I didn't notice any gigantic difference on my drive home with TCS off. That said, it did seem a tad better. I'll keep an eye on it...

(Note that I haven't had any major issues with my tranny to date)

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Originally Posted by PratoN View Post
Coming from an engineer, I love talking to customers and repair technicians on issues - and they love it too. But marketing says we "lack social skills" or something. Plus, we usually tell them too much. Then word gets out (for example) that "every clutch on every 2012 Focus is bad" and it ends up costing the company too much money. That's why they keep us locked in the basement.

Note: That was just an example - I don't work for Ford. I am, however an engineer stuck working in a basement with desks/cubicle walls from 1970 while the people upstairs are on like... their 4th remodel since 2000.
I know your pain, dude... I know your pain.

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There is a good reason as to why it would be difficult to find a car that doesn't operate in a similar manner to the Focus.
That there is: Lawyers.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:56 PM   #63
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Much better with TCS off

Here is what I noticed while specifically going through all situations I complained to dealer b4:

1. I can EASILY modulate engine response while in 6th gear when driving on the hilly highway.
2. Shifts are much quicker 1 to 4 when going from the dead stop
3. Downshifts ARE SO MUCH better from 6 to 5
4. I an easily modulate throttle for constant speed uphill with variable grade.

In my case I think we've got a winner. No only if Ford will tell me wtf is wrong with TCS/AdvanceTrac. Thought it suppose to help you not handicap you?

For everyone out there I would definitely suggest doing it then drive around some good hills
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:09 PM   #64
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TCS off greatly improved the shudder and clutch slipping when taking off from a stop for me. Since 12b37 this problem has been seriously annoying but havnt brought it in to service dept yet. Now with this TCS off the car is much better to drive. Before 12b37 the car was perfect shifting gears, almost seamless shifts and I never turned TCS off before either.

IMO its not the TCS that's flawed; its the software update 12b37 that caused it. A new update should fix it or if Ford would let us roll back to the previous DCT update that would work too. Hoping this find will help them to get us a fix soon!
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #65
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Seems to me that this problem could be resolved permanently with a simple software update, just rewrite the code to make the TCS default to off, and if you want it on then you can turn it on yourself.
I don't think disabling by default a safety feature is going to fly with anyone at Ford, especially their lawyers, possibly not with the NTSB either so we're talking doing that on your own, unofficially I guess. As far as the DCT goes mine behaves wonderfully so far (knock on wood) and I can't relate to all this shuddering stuff people talk about.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:46 PM   #66
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I don't think disabling by default a safety feature is going to fly with anyone at Ford, especially their lawyers, possibly not with the NTSB either so we're talking doing that on your own, unofficially I guess. As far as the DCT goes mine behaves wonderfully so far (knock on wood) and I can't relate to all this shuddering stuff people talk about.
If we can turn it off, it's already been vetted by the lawyers. What this does show is a possible correlation between the Traction Control logic and DCT control issues. That is progress.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:32 AM   #67
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If we can turn it off, it's already been vetted by the lawyers. What this does show is a possible correlation between the Traction Control logic and DCT control issues. That is progress.
Yes but is it actually the TCS itself or that the DCT clutches are misbehaving? Would slipping transmission clutches somehow play havoc with the TCS? I don't know the tie in between the two but I thought traction control generally worked related to the anti-lock brake system from wheel sensors sending wheel slippage info to a processor and braking info./force back to the slipping wheel(s). I can't see how turning the TCS off makes the trans work better but I don't doubt that it's occurring.
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:08 AM   #68
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Yes but is it actually the TCS itself or that the DCT clutches are misbehaving? Would slipping transmission clutches somehow play havoc with the TCS? I don't know the tie in between the two but I thought traction control generally worked related to the anti-lock brake system from wheel sensors sending wheel slippage info to a processor and braking info./force back to the slipping wheel(s). I can't see how turning the TCS off makes the trans work better but I don't doubt that it's occurring.
There could also be a torque management logic in play when the TCS is active. We know the car has torque vectoring, which is just a way of using the ABS to control torque steer. However, in most electronic throttle cars, there is a torque managment system that will reduce the throttle plate angle as well as using the ABS to keep wheelspin to a minimum. With the TCS off, these electronic nannies are reduced/defeated and the DCT logic is not competing with the TCS and torque management systems.

I honestly have never turned the TCS off in my MT car. I'm going to try that and see if some of the hesitation I fell is reduced as well. There is a TSB out for the MT's as well, guys report that it wakes up the throttle response. I'm thinking it too backs off the torque management nanny.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:13 AM   #69
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bsp_53, I'm close to 27k miles, so around the same boat. Give it and shot and let me know if it helps at all.

Smizak, Thanks! Maybe we can actually figure this out.
Tried it, still slips and marbles in a blender for me. Maybe I actually have a component problem.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:41 AM   #70
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Well, drove home with it off and drove back to work with it off today...not one instance of shuddering. There's a *tiny* bit of clutch slip on takeoff, but that I would expect (same as any manual car)...and it's *GREATLY* reduced from when I have the TCS enabled.

My theory is thus: one of the factors used in determining whether TCS should be engaged is the resistance on the drive shaft. When there's far less resistance than the computer thinks it should have, it engages the TCS to even it out. I'm using lighter wheels (21lbs as opposed to 32lbs stock wheels), so maybe I'm more at risk since there's already less resistance. Maybe I'm passed the tolerance of the computer and so the computer thinks the TCS should be engaged. This all makes sense since the shuddering *does* feel like it's being created artificially by the TCS.

Also, the TCS doesn't just use the ABS to control tire movement. Traction Control can encompass more than just sitting on ice and revving the engine. It controls tire movement through the use of the braking, torque vectoring, fly-by-wire fuel management, and good old-fashioned clutch control. That means when it thinks the tire is slipping it might employ the brakes, it might put more torque on the opposing side, and/or it might cut the engine a bit and disengage the clutch to some degree.

All of those factors together can easily account for shuddering. It's just amazing that not a single Ford engineer has figured this out before now. Good thing I have a phone call with a corporate engineer tomorrow :) Hope he know more about dry concentric dual-clutch transmissions than the last one.
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