Think I figured out the shuddering when starting from a stop...can't believe it - Page 4

feta_mgp · 10-03-2012, 01:55 PM

Tried this for my commute to/from work today. While I haven't had many DCT issues thus far (the major one I've made a thread about being my odd hiccup when cruise control is on where the car will for a split second lose power and the RPMs jump up ~100, usually less) I have had some shuddering and definitely undesirable acceleration behavior with mine. Turning TCS off today made a noticeable difference in how the car shifed; smoothly and quickly, and how it responded to throttle input; much more linear and as one would expect. Will have it off for my commute to and from class tonight as well, and to and from work tomorrow too, hopefully these results are really saying something, because so far while my car as stated hasn't had a lot of DCT trouble, this definitely made a difference.

As a side note: the TCS seems to have no effect on the weird hiccup I have on cruise control. That was the first thing I tried, figured they might be related since that hiccup didn't start until 12b37. My dealership was no help, he told me cars have done that for years where they'll adjust RPMs according to speed/incline/etc. though this is so minute and so quick that it can't be the case. I know how the adjustments feel, this is a small surge/loss of power. Maybe I'll escalate it more the next time I have an issue with something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabigon

Do you know of any recent cars that don't have this "major flaw in engineering"?

The Mazda3 line has had a "DSC" (Dynamic Stability Control) button that would toggle some TCS elements on or off since it was brand new in 2003, and holding it down upon startup would totally disable the TCS. So yes, I do know of one that's actually had it for almost a decade. It truly is a flaw in engineering. If you're stuck in mud or snow, sometimes that extra several seconds it takes to have to go through menus rather than hit a button is all it takes for your car to sink too far in to the muck to get through.

TiPilot · 10-03-2012, 02:04 PM

Very interesting. Like feta, I haven't had a ton of issues with shifting in my car. But I still have noticed shuddering from time to time. I'll give this a go on the way home from work later...

bsp_53 · 10-03-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordCustomerService

Very interesting news, folks! I'll keep an eye on this thread and see if people are having consistent results that I can share.

As always, reach out to me if you need assistance. I'm happy to see how I can help!

Thanks!
Crystal

Thank you, Crystal. Please do keep an eye on this thread. I believe that hotleadsingerguy may have made an important discovery.

narkotskyb · 10-03-2012, 02:27 PM

Just did a quick check with TC disabled and first impressions are positive. Hate that I have to disable it every time I turn the engine on. Will post more as I get more driving done later today.

raptor1956 · 10-03-2012, 02:53 PM

This is an excellent thread and I'm glad our reps are keeping an eye on it as well. There are a number of potential reasons why the TC could play a roll with the shudder thing but the bottom line is that it's likely the TC is modulating throttle and maybe the brakes -- either one or both could produce those symptoms.

I wonder it someone with the shudder problem could do a before and after YouTube video with good audio -- that would be interesting. And drive the same course with and without TC.

Lastly, I wonder if TC outputs are monitored in a way that could be recorded or captured with an OBD device. If so it would be very interesting to do back-to-back tests with and without TC to see what differences can be seen in the data.

I should mention that I've never had any shudder issues with my 2012 FF Ti nor any MFT issues.

Brian

hotleadsingerguy · 10-03-2012, 02:57 PM

My Regional Customer Service Manager called me today and I explained the situation to her...and she said it's up to the dealerships on whether they want to check into something or not. If they say no there's "nothing" that corporate Ford can do to overturn it.

She said there would be nothing she could do if the service techs or service manager refuse to do something.

I now have a conference call Friday with a corporate engineer to discuss what is happening and what could be causing it. Apparently initiating a discussion on concentric dry dual-clutch transmission systems is a bit too complicated for a regional customer service manager. She attempted to tell me, once again, that that's how the cars operate...which flies in the face of the countless other dual-clutch transmissions in the world that don't operate this way at all...especially if turning off the TCS fixes the problem completely.

Either way, the issue didn't start until the update was applied (the conglomerated update of the TCS, ABS, and Tranny)...so it wasn't something in the way the transmission was *designed*, which is what every service tech has told me up until this point. The worst part is there's really nowhere else to go from here other than starting a lawsuit, which I'm definitely not above doing. In the coming months either the car will be fixed, the car will be bought back by Ford, or a lawsuit will be initiated. I'm definitely not driving a car for the next 10 years that operates this way. I didn't buy a car that operates this way, and I'll be darned if one is forced on me.

darkangelism · 10-03-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotleadsingerguy

My Regional Customer Service Manager called me today and I explained the situation to her...and she said it's up to the dealerships on whether they want to check into something or not. If they say no there's "nothing" that corporate Ford can do to overturn it.

She said there would be nothing she could do if the service techs or service manager refuse to do something.

I now have a conference call Friday with a corporate engineer to discuss what is happening and what could be causing it. Apparently initiating a discussion on concentric dry dual-clutch transmission systems is a bit too complicated for a regional customer service manager. She attempted to tell me, once again, that that's how the cars operate...which flies in the face of the countless other dual-clutch transmissions in the world that don't operate this way at all...especially if turning off the TCS fixes the problem completely.

Either way, the issue didn't start until the update was applied (the conglomerated update of the TCS, ABS, and Tranny)...so it wasn't something in the way the transmission was *designed*, which is what every service tech has told me up until this point. The worst part is there's really nowhere else to go from here other than starting a lawsuit, which I'm definitely not above doing. In the coming months either the car will be fixed, the car will be bought back by Ford, or a lawsuit will be initiated. I'm definitely not driving a car for the next 10 years that operates this way. I didn't buy a car that operates this way, and I'll be darned if one is forced on me.

Sounds like the middle manager mouth breathers are getting in the way, hopefully talking to the engineer helps

noahsfocus · 10-03-2012, 03:18 PM

Great find Hotleadsingerguy!!! This makes a huge difference. I only did a short drive going out for lunch but definitely confirmed it! Wow, hope thus helps get us a new PCM update since the last update (dreaded it too) 12b37 caused this issue.

My car used to drive so smooth it was hard to know when it shifted without looking at the tach. I used to take off from a stop up to 4th gear (with the music volume up of course) and ask passengers if they could tell when it shifted ... usually they couldn't. Now adays post 12b37 I dare not ask and I kinda feel embarrased how it slips the clutches or shudders between first and second and the hard shifts in 2nd, 3rd, n 4th as well.

I will be using TC off until another update is released and hope mt clutches and tranny didn't get damaged too much. Still curious if I got the tranny leak but havn't checked for it yet.

Thanks Hotleadsingerguy ... +1 for you!!!

Dysan911 · 10-03-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotleadsingerguy

See I've taken that shield off 4-5 times already (oil changes, usually) and never really looked. I've looked for oil leaks after changing it and gave a quick inspection, but haven't really seen any leaks. I've seen a bit of staining, but I naturally assumed it was just road dirt and road wash that had dripped down the housing. I'll have to check it out a bit more often. When you saw actual liquid down there was it shortly after a drive? Does it "leak" more often while driving it/after driving it?

Mine was dripping right where the Tranny and the Engine seem to meet. Pretty much right in the middle facing forward. There is a rust inhibitor they apply internally that can show up on the outside but you'll typically notice it's more of a gummy reddish looking color. In my case it was more of a solid bead of fresh oil looking substance that you could collect with your finger. As long as the lower engine cover is there it would prevent any drips on the driveway so there could be other people that have a leaking issue and not even know. I would assume it would take quite a bit of drips to eventually create enough to spill out of that engine cover.