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Old 09-11-2012, 10:47 PM   #11
Zillon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suss6052 View Post
Of course a 6MT with the same gear ratios or perhaps slightly taller would help close the gap.
Which is precisely what I've been saying.
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Zillon View Post
Which is precisely what I've been saying.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Just clarifying why in a scientific and engineering sort of way why the DCT will always get better mileage at higher speeds than the current 5MT, and how if they had a 6MT it would be real competition for drivers who wanted better mileage and the feel of driving a manual but don't mind clutching and shifting themselves.

I liked learning to drive a manual car, but the 2012 Focus I wanted wasn't available as a manual at least in this country. The only way to get a Frosted Glass Focus Hatchback with four wheel disk brakes and alloy wheels was in an SEL. I considered sterling grey or ingot silver in a sedan with sports package when going through my options, but the hatch was more practical, and now that I've had mine for a while, I love it to death. The manual was not as efficient as well.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Zillon View Post
I believe that if Ford offered the car with a 6-speed, they would've lost their argument for buyers to purchase the DCT. I believe the Focus would be capable of better MPG with an additional cog.

"Why get a manual? Our DCT trans gets equal or better fuel economy!"

They couldn't say that if the MK3 had a 6-speed.
Most people will automatically buy an automatic (regardless of the number of gears in the available manual transmission).

Those that really want a manual don't care that the automatic has more gears.

The bottom line for the MTX-75 is $$$.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suss6052
As speed builds there is no way that the 5MT can be as efficient at higher speeds than the DCT just because its gearing isn't tall enough. The shorter gearing might help the acceleration slightly, but not really.
I know the 5MT can't be as efficient at higher speeds as the DCT. We're not talking about the 5MT, we're talking about a possibility of a 6MT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabigon View Post
Most people will automatically buy an automatic (regardless of the number of gears in the available manual transmission).

Those that really want a manual don't care that the automatic has more gears.
This isn't about people caring about the number of gears in the trans. This is about fuel economy. People care about final fuel economy numbers; they really don't give two cents about how those numbers came to be, as long as the car moves down the road in a car-like fashion without any bucking, grinding, or other unwanted drama. Unfortunately for Ford, some of the DCTs exhibited some issues, sounding like blender on crack at times; this either deterred people from choosing the Focus at all, or they chose a stick instead. The one I drove was fine, of course, but I have seen the videos and heard the sound clips.

When I bought my car, the salesman's big push for me to go DCT was based solely on fuel economy. He asked why I wanted a stick when the DCT car was more efficient on fuel. I told him I cared more about driving enjoyment over fuel economy (and I also knew of the issues with the early-build DCTs), and I knew the stick in the Focus was a good one with positive engagement and smooth action.

Yes, it's true that most drivers don't want a manual transmission any longer, and yes it's true that profit margins are bigger for a 5MT versus a 6MT. However, had Ford spec'd a 6-speed with ratios closer to the DCT instead of the 5-speed with it's short OD gear, I think that the economy margin between the manual transmission cars and DCT cars would be negligible (or ~1MPG or less better, who knows).

When Ford debuted the new Focus, the big push (aside from Ford's push to get people to buy into SYNC), was getting people to accept the DCT transmission as normal, after years of selling traditional slushboxes. DCTs, as we know, are more efficient than a standard torque-convertor automatic, and are also more efficient than a manual transmission, given the same ratios. Also, no automaker really wants to sell manual transmission cars anymore. That means more complexity in the assembly line and less profit. Despite Ford's push for the DCT, 10% of Focus buyers have bought the manual spec'd car over the DCT one. While many people have bought this car for fuel economy alone (and those that did immediately disregarded the manual transmission car and went with the DCT), there were others like myself, who didn't care so much about fuel economy or price and just wanted driving enjoyment; we chose the 5MT. Others knew of the issues with the DCT and decided to go with the 5MT. Some just wanted a cheaper car, and went for the 5MT.

However, I believe that if Ford had spec'd the MK3 Focus with a [good] 6-speed MT with similar ratios to the DCT that made the mileage margin negligible or ever-so-slightly in favor of the MT, they would have lost a few more DCT conquests to the manual transmission, making the manual take rate for this car a bit higher than it's already fairly high (for this lazy country) 10%.

The Chevy Cruze Eco is a good example of this (Disclosure: I know that the Cruze doesn't have a DCT, just a regular slushbox, and that Chevy front-loaded early production with manual transmission vehicles), "That magic 42-mpg number has paid off for Chevy so far. Of the buyers who chose the Cruze Eco in the first half of the year, 48 percent selected the six-speed manual transmission, a very high rate for a modern sedan." Link to article.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter. I'm just speculating.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #15
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You guys simply don't understand Ford.You don't know what you need but FORD DOES.A few months ago I went to a Hyundai dealership and asked for an Elantra with a 6 speed manual.And do you know what happened?The salesman looked at me and said:"No problem we got one right here,wanna try it?" I did,and 30 min later the papers were signed and the day after I was picking it up and never had a problem since.Yes ,I was happy ,but it's easy to see that Hyundai is not gonna make any money like that.And it's sad that they will probably close their doors soon.

They got to learn ,that they CANNOT give the customers what they want.If they make those transmissions available,they can't force their buyers into the automatic tranny that they should sell.Hyundai,Mazda,Dodge,... got it all wrong.Ford knows.If they say you don't need a 6speed manual it's because you don't need it,and if you buy a 5 speed ,you'll pay for it because you'll take more gasoline.Ford hasn't been in business for so long because they don't know what they're doing.If you buy something else,yes you'll get what you want ,but you will hurt these company who will suffer because they will give you what you want.

So remember this:If Ford says the powershift is what you need it's because they know so!And you say you don't like it ,it's because you don't understand and you are not a true Patriot.Keep this in mind before complaining again about a 6 speed manual transmission.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazingo View Post
You guys simply don't understand Ford.You don't know what you need but FORD DOES.A few months ago I went to a Hyundai dealership and asked for an Elantra with a 6 speed manual.And do you know what happened?The salesman looked at me and said:"No problem we got one right here,wanna try it?" I did,and 30 min later the papers were signed and the day after I was picking it up and never had a problem since.Yes ,I was happy ,but it's easy to see that Hyundai is not gonna make any money like that.And it's sad that they will probably close their doors soon.

They got to learn ,that they CANNOT give the customers what they want.If they make those transmissions available,they can't force their buyers into the automatic tranny that they should sell.Hyundai,Mazda,Dodge,... got it all wrong.Ford knows.If they say you don't need a 6speed manual it's because you don't need it,and if you buy a 5 speed ,you'll pay for it because you'll take more gasoline.Ford hasn't been in business for so long because they don't know what they're doing.If you buy something else,yes you'll get what you want ,but you will hurt these company who will suffer because they will give you what you want.

So remember this:If Ford says the powershift is what you need it's because they know so!And you say you don't like it ,it's because you don't understand and you are not a true Patriot.Keep this in mind before complaining again about a 6 speed manual transmission.
YEAH! MURICA!

Wait...

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Old 09-12-2012, 11:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazingo View Post
You guys simply don't understand Ford.You don't know what you need but FORD DOES.A few months ago I went to a Hyundai dealership and asked for an Elantra with a 6 speed manual.And do you know what happened?The salesman looked at me and said:"No problem we got one right here,wanna try it?" I did,and 30 min later the papers were signed and the day after I was picking it up and never had a problem since.Yes ,I was happy ,but it's easy to see that Hyundai is not gonna make any money like that.And it's sad that they will probably close their doors soon.

They got to learn ,that they CANNOT give the customers what they want.If they make those transmissions available,they can't force their buyers into the automatic tranny that they should sell.Hyundai,Mazda,Dodge,... got it all wrong.Ford knows.If they say you don't need a 6speed manual it's because you don't need it,and if you buy a 5 speed ,you'll pay for it because you'll take more gasoline.Ford hasn't been in business for so long because they don't know what they're doing.If you buy something else,yes you'll get what you want ,but you will hurt these company who will suffer because they will give you what you want.

So remember this:If Ford says the powershift is what you need it's because they know so!And you say you don't like it ,it's because you don't understand and you are not a true Patriot.Keep this in mind before complaining again about a 6 speed manual transmission.
....wat?
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazingo View Post
You guys simply don't understand Ford.You don't know what you need but FORD DOES.A few months ago I went to a Hyundai dealership and asked for an Elantra with a 6 speed manual.And do you know what happened?The salesman looked at me and said:"No problem we got one right here,wanna try it?" I did,and 30 min later the papers were signed and the day after I was picking it up and never had a problem since.Yes ,I was happy ,but it's easy to see that Hyundai is not gonna make any money like that.And it's sad that they will probably close their doors soon.

They got to learn ,that they CANNOT give the customers what they want.If they make those transmissions available,they can't force their buyers into the automatic tranny that they should sell.Hyundai,Mazda,Dodge,... got it all wrong.Ford knows.If they say you don't need a 6speed manual it's because you don't need it,and if you buy a 5 speed ,you'll pay for it because you'll take more gasoline.Ford hasn't been in business for so long because they don't know what they're doing.If you buy something else,yes you'll get what you want ,but you will hurt these company who will suffer because they will give you what you want.

So remember this:If Ford says the powershift is what you need it's because they know so!And you say you don't like it ,it's because you don't understand and you are not a true Patriot.Keep this in mind before complaining again about a 6 speed manual transmission.



Because I have no idea what the I just read
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:36 PM   #19
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I'm guessing this is sarcasm. Hope so anyway.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:49 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Mazingo View Post
So remember this: If Ford says the powershift is what you need it's because they know so! And you say you don't like it, it's because you don't understand and you are not a true patriot. Keep this in mind before complaining again about a 6 speed manual transmission.
Love it.
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