My Oil Change Interval Debate Rant

[TboneZX3]

Originally Posted by UnleashedBeast

Cheaper over the year, better overall.

Again you seem to be equating "cheaper" and "better deal". Like I said, it's more than twice as expensive so, in the above example (1 change with Amsoil vs. 2 with Mobil 1 & Motorcraft filter), it is in no way cheaper over the year.

[TiStick]

Originally Posted by TboneZX3

Again you seem to be equating "cheaper" and "better deal". Like I said, it's more than twice as expensive so, in the above example (1 change with Amsoil vs. 2 with Mobil 1 & Motorcraft filter), it is in no way cheaper over the year.

If I can go for much longer w/o crawling under the car, that makes sense to me. My time is actually quite valuable to me. So, 1 Amsoil change in the same interval as 2 M1 changes equates to less time on my back. There is value to be had there alone.

[UnleashedBeast]

Everyone has their preference.

I choose to change my oil no more than once a year while sparing the environment with waste oil. Yes, I understand they recycle most of it, but that requires additional energy. As a side benefit, I also have less wear.

The UOA's of proof are on the way, just give it time.

[Napalm]

y'all are gonna hate me.

First off - per other SAE studies. With a good filter and some time, i like a 5K change. with a good filter and some synthetic I trust, I will go until the monitor goes off.

However - what do I trust is a very short list. M1, Amsoil, and Castrol.

but as said if you just can't stand it - change it more often - hurts nothing but your wallet.

But my biggest thing - run a filter magnet. I don't care if you use cheap oil that you change often. I don't care if you use some magic brand filter etc (I prefer wix). I don't care what you drive.

USE A FILTER MAGNET!!!


Now I'm not also selling those 59 dollar filter mags from Jegs or Summit etc. Use what you can find easily.

I use the magnets off the heads of sonicare toothbrushes, or magnets out of a harddrive. Yes really. Why - they were free. And guess what they are strong enought to stay on the filter of a 500 HP v8 car in Memphis City traffic over a 6 month period.

Then they are also strong enough to pull iron metals to the sides of the filter. And again - cheap.

Meanwhile in my family car I use 9 quarts of Amsoil 5-30 and a wix gold filter.

for my new focus - I intend to use Amsoil in it too and some filter. That is up for debate currently.

[DudleyF]

With modern engines, modern oil and the detergent additives used, the intervals you are talking about are just plain silly. You can make the argument that it's cheap, ink carts cost more, etc. but that does not change that fact that you are advocating plain, unnecessary waste. Milk is cheap too, but I do not buy gallons of it then go dump it in the street just because I can readily afford to.

I have put in excess of 230,000 miles on 13 different cars (that's 230k, minimum, on each, not all combined). Each was maintained to the letter of the manufacturer's maintenance intervals. In some cases the oil change was 5,000 miles (some turbo engines from the `80s), in most cases it is 7,500, and in others 10,000 or more.

In every single case; not some, not most, but every case I have had zero engine, bearing or any issues of any kind that could be traced to or blamed on insufficient oil changes. My Civic just passed 250k and still does not burn a drop between it's 10,000-mile interval. I have done partial tear downs of some engines I put over 300k on for fun (the engine was still running great but the body so corroded and structurally unsound from the salty winters we get here that the car was worth little more than scrap metal), and found no significant buildup in the oil galleys, valves, etc. Many independent labs have done studies on this and found that oil actually reaches it's best lubricating properties between 2k and 7k miles also.

You can of course piss your money away however you wish if it makes you feel better, but what you suggest is in no way better for your car, improves its performance or will make it last longer. The placebo effect is strong, however, and this is all you'll get from 3k oil changes.

[Pretherius]

Originally Posted by DudleyF

With modern engines, modern oil and the detergent additives used, the intervals you are talking about are just plain silly. You can make the argument that it's cheap, ink carts cost more, etc. but that does not change that fact that you are advocating plain, unnecessary waste. Milk is cheap too, but I do not buy gallons of it then go dump it in the street just because I can readily afford to.

I have put in excess of 230,000 miles on 13 different cars (that's 230k, minimum, on each, not all combined). Each was maintained to the letter of the manufacturer's maintenance intervals. In some cases the oil change was 5,000 miles (some turbo engines from the `80s), in most cases it is 7,500, and in others 10,000 or more.

In every single case; not some, not most, but every case I have had zero engine, bearing or any issues of any kind that could be traced to or blamed on insufficient oil changes. My Civic just passed 250k and still does not burn a drop between it's 10,000-mile interval. I have done partial tear downs of some engines I put over 300k on for fun (the engine was still running great but the body so corroded and structurally unsound from the salty winters we get here that the car was worth little more than scrap metal), and found no significant buildup in the oil galleys, valves, etc. Many independent labs have done studies on this and found that oil actually reaches it's best lubricating properties between 2k and 7k miles also.

You can of course piss your money away however you wish if it makes you feel better, but what you suggest is in no way better for your car, improves its performance or will make it last longer. The placebo effect is strong, however, and this is all you'll get from 3k oil changes.

So you've had bearing issues that you could definitively say were -not- due to maintenance habits?

I ask because, personally, I've purchased used cars that developed bearing issues. I'd be hard pressed to say for certain it wasn't because of maintenance habits.

I don't think your milk-dumping analogy is great because what you're talking about is purely wasteful. I'd liken it more to people who live an inactive lifestyle--there's a decent chance that they'll live to be elderly, but if they'd make the investment and exercise they would increase their odds. Similar to diligent vehicle maintenance--it's not a guarantee but it improves your odds, so it isn't a complete waste of money.

[Napalm]

Originally Posted by DudleyF

With modern engines, modern oil and the detergent additives used, the intervals you are talking about are just plain silly. You can make the argument that it's cheap, ink carts cost more, etc. but that does not change that fact that you are advocating plain, unnecessary waste. Milk is cheap too, but I do not buy gallons of it then go dump it in the street just because I can readily afford to.

I have put in excess of 230,000 miles on 13 different cars (that's 230k, minimum, on each, not all combined). Each was maintained to the letter of the manufacturer's maintenance intervals. In some cases the oil change was 5,000 miles (some turbo engines from the `80s), in most cases it is 7,500, and in others 10,000 or more.

In every single case; not some, not most, but every case I have had zero engine, bearing or any issues of any kind that could be traced to or blamed on insufficient oil changes. My Civic just passed 250k and still does not burn a drop between it's 10,000-mile interval. I have done partial tear downs of some engines I put over 300k on for fun (the engine was still running great but the body so corroded and structurally unsound from the salty winters we get here that the car was worth little more than scrap metal), and found no significant buildup in the oil galleys, valves, etc. Many independent labs have done studies on this and found that oil actually reaches it's best lubricating properties between 2k and 7k miles also.

You can of course piss your money away however you wish if it makes you feel better, but what you suggest is in no way better for your car, improves its performance or will make it last longer. The placebo effect is strong, however, and this is all you'll get from 3k oil changes.

I do. Every Saturday morning around 8 I stand in my front yard and pour 2 gallons of milk over my nekkid body while yelling out OOOH Milk bath biatches pour that on your cheerios!!!

They go back inside and do the crossword. I mean its one of the joys of home ownership everyone should try.

Meanwhile I partially agree with your premise.

If a person is going to run 3K changes - great have fun - I drive too much but whatever. If you are - save a buck or 2 and use something like Mobil 5000 clean - its great dino oil. Or Valvoline.

[DudleyF]

Originally Posted by Pretherius

So you've had bearing issues that you could definitively say were -not- due to maintenance habits?

I ask because, personally, I've purchased used cars that developed bearing issues. I'd be hard pressed to say for certain it wasn't because of maintenance habits.

I don't think your milk-dumping analogy is great because what you're talking about is purely wasteful. I'd liken it more to people who live an inactive lifestyle--there's a decent chance that they'll live to be elderly, but if they'd make the investment and exercise they would increase their odds. Similar to diligent vehicle maintenance--it's not a guarantee but it improves your odds, so it isn't a complete waste of money.

Fair enough question since I was not very clear in my comment, so let me simply clarify it by saying I've never had any *engine* bearing issues, nor valve issues, nor any internal engine problems of any kind for that matter (I emphasize "engine" because wheel bearing issues are another issue).

You could be totally right that your purchased cars had engine bearing issues from maintenance problems. Note that I said I maintain to the letter of the manufacturer's intervals for all maintenance, whatever that may be. Many people do not even do that and I personally know many folks who've not changed the oil in their cars in 25k or more miles. THAT I do not advocate.

Again, I disagree about your last sentence because I do not think it improves your odds at all, and only buys that "good feeling" that you are going above and beyond. Contrary to belief, auto manufacturers do NOT want your engine to fail prematurely - it would kill their reputation in the market as well as their sales (not to mention open themselves to all kinds of litigation), so millions of miles of testing go into determining the optimal change intervals, which are then usually derated an additional 20% to 30% to give some overhead (or "padding," if you will) since most people are not so "to the letter" on the maintenance guide.

In other words, you could probably go even longer and still be fine, but again, I am not advocating anyone do that, only that you do what the company that engineered your engine - and know it far better than you - suggest you do.

[Pretherius]

Originally Posted by DudleyF

You could be totally right that your purchased cars had engine bearing issues from maintenance problems. Note that I said I maintain to the letter of the manufacturer's intervals for all maintenance, whatever that may be. Many people do not even do that and I personally know many folks who've not changed the oil in their cars in 25k or more miles. THAT I do not advocate.

Well... sure. I had an '02 Taurus with bearing trouble. I bought it with 35K on the clock. Maybe it never had an oil change. I just find that unlikely.

Again, I disagree about your last sentence because I do not think it improves your odds at all, and only buys that "good feeling" that you are going above and beyond.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. Oil--like coolant, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, brake fluid--doesn't stop working all of a sudden like flipping a switch. It's a long, slow progression from "perfect" to "might as well run mud in the crankcase." If your carmaker suggests changing the oil at 10K but I insist on changing mine at 7,500, you're putting 1/4 of your miles on with more worn down oil than I am. Maybe your engine lives long enough to see you sell the car regardless, and maybe it doesn't. But your odds are certainly better changing fluids more often. (Whether that's worth your extra time and money is a separate philosophical discussion.)

Peace of mind isn't worthless either.

[DudleyF]

Originally Posted by Pretherius

Well... sure. I had an '02 Taurus with bearing trouble. I bought it with 35K on the clock. Maybe it never had an oil change. I just find that unlikely.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. Oil--like coolant, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, brake fluid--doesn't stop working all of a sudden like flipping a switch. It's a long, slow progression from "perfect" to "might as well run mud in the crankcase." If your carmaker suggests changing the oil at 10K but I insist on changing mine at 7,500, you're putting 1/4 of your miles on with more worn down oil than I am. Maybe your engine lives long enough to see you sell the car regardless, and maybe it doesn't. But your odds are certainly better changing fluids more often. (Whether that's worth your extra time and money is a separate philosophical discussion.)

Peace of mind isn't worthless either.

Or maybe that engine had defective bearings, or a bad design. In either case changing the oil every 100 miles would have made NO difference.

You are right, it is a long slow progression, and as I noted many, many, many tests have been done by oil companies, car manufacturers, independent labs, etc. over the years that have proven that the threshold where oil starts to become ineffective is way beyond what the suggested maintenance intervals call for in all cars.

I was an expat living and working in Europe for quite a number of years, and they have been recommending extended changes intervals (typically 1.5 to 2 times longer than ours) for 20+ years. The oil life monitor in the BMW I had usually came on for a change around 16,000 miles on average, and that's with regular autobahn blasts (foot to the floor). There has been 0% increase in engine failures as a result.

Again, do as you please, but you are not benefiting your car, only the oil companies (who indeed will appreciate you for it).