DCT / PowerShift Transmission Update TSB Thread - Page 127 - Focus Fanatics
Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forums
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace



Go Back   Focus Fanatics > Model Specific Discussions > MK3 Focus > MK3 TSB, Recall & Problems Archive

MK3 TSB, Recall & Problems Archive The place to chat about TSB and Known Issues for the 2012 Focus.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
FocusFest Ford Focus Tire & Wheels FocusFanatics Merchandise

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-01-2012, 04:21 PM   #1261
GapBoyPCS
Focus Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Fan#: 54
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, Canada
What I Drive: 2002 ZTS | 2012 SE Sport

Posts: 103
FF Reputation: 1 GapBoyPCS Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Update on mine done last week, along with the front wiper grommet recall. With over 20,000 km on the odometer and a week of fairly easy commuting, it seems like it's doing fine.
__________________
Richard | GapBoyPCS
The odometer just keeps whizzin' by...
GapBoyPCS is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-02-2012, 12:23 PM   #1262
dberezin
Focus Rookie
 
dberezin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Fan#: 96949
Location: Yardley, PA
What I Drive: 2012 Tuxedo Black SEL 303A

Posts: 15
FF Reputation: 1 dberezin Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
I had mine done last month and I've put a couple thousand miles on since (I'm at 7,700 miles total on car). I still get that horrible shuddering/shaking when I take my foot off the brake and let the car move forward without stepping on the gas. It's never consistent, though and sometimes the shuddering is more "violent" than other times.

Took it to 2 nearby dealers and they both say that its a "characteristic" of this transmission (at least she didn't say it was a feature ). After PM'ing Ford Customer Service here on the site, he put me in touch with a regional CS Rep. She gave me the same story saying it was a characteristic of this engine. If I wanted a third opinion, they would set one up for me. I did take her up on it and brought it back to the dealer where I bought it. The shop foreman drove the car with me and he said the same thing and that there is nothing he can do about it unless Ford comes up with a new update. He here's this complaint a lot from Focus owners.

So, it looks like I'm stuck with this issue. I talked to the CS rep again and expressed my dissatisfaction with this and I hope Ford looks into this. This shouldn't be a shuddering and shaking should not be a "characteristic". How come the VW DCT doesn't do this?

Also, the new Dodge Dart with DCT doesn't have this issue according this article in Car and Driver:

...At low speeds and in stop-and-go situations, the transmission exhibited none of the stuttering or indecision of the dual-clutch PowerShift in the current Ford Focus, and shifts are both quicker and less intrusive than those of Hyundai’s DCT. But how about a dual-clutch we quite like? Compared to VW’s excellent DSG, the Chrysler unit swaps gears with far less authority. Overall, the DDCT is most like a traditional torque-converter automatic of the dual-clutch units we’ve sampled to date.

Automatic for the People

Which makes sense. According to Chrysler, its engineers were more concerned with the DDCT’s fully automatic mode; the goal was operation as similar as possible to the regular autoboxes Americans love so dearly. This is also the mindset that drove Ford’s PowerShift calibrations; the blue oval wasn’t as successful, however. In the Dart, you simply don’t feel any sensations that indicate the car has switched gears; you only hear the change in engine note and see the tach needle drop.


The car shifts great in all other gears and I love everything else about the car. I hope Ford and it's engineers can do something about this.

End of Rant!
dberezin is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 01:12 PM   #1263
suss6052
Focus Addict
 
suss6052's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Fan#: 95752
Location: ..., MI
What I Drive: 2013 Ford Focus ST2 Ingot Silver

Posts: 11,656
FF Reputation: 21 suss6052 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberezin View Post
I had mine done last month and I've put a couple thousand miles on since (I'm at 7,700 miles total on car). I still get that horrible shuddering/shaking when I take my foot off the brake and let the car move forward without stepping on the gas. It's never consistent, though and sometimes the shuddering is more "violent" than other times.

Took it to 2 nearby dealers and they both say that its a "characteristic" of this transmission (at least she didn't say it was a feature ). After PM'ing Ford Customer Service here on the site, he put me in touch with a regional CS Rep. She gave me the same story saying it was a characteristic of this engine. If I wanted a third opinion, they would set one up for me. I did take her up on it and brought it back to the dealer where I bought it. The shop foreman drove the car with me and he said the same thing and that there is nothing he can do about it unless Ford comes up with a new update. He here's this complaint a lot from Focus owners.

So, it looks like I'm stuck with this issue. I talked to the CS rep again and expressed my dissatisfaction with this and I hope Ford looks into this. This shouldn't be a shuddering and shaking should not be a "characteristic". How come the VW DCT doesn't do this?

Also, the new Dodge Dart with DCT doesn't have this issue according this article in Car and Driver:

...At low speeds and in stop-and-go situations, the transmission exhibited none of the stuttering or indecision of the dual-clutch PowerShift in the current Ford Focus, and shifts are both quicker and less intrusive than those of Hyundai’s DCT. But how about a dual-clutch we quite like? Compared to VW’s excellent DSG, the Chrysler unit swaps gears with far less authority. Overall, the DDCT is most like a traditional torque-converter automatic of the dual-clutch units we’ve sampled to date.

Automatic for the People

Which makes sense. According to Chrysler, its engineers were more concerned with the DDCT’s fully automatic mode; the goal was operation as similar as possible to the regular autoboxes Americans love so dearly. This is also the mindset that drove Ford’s PowerShift calibrations; the blue oval wasn’t as successful, however. In the Dart, you simply don’t feel any sensations that indicate the car has switched gears; you only hear the change in engine note and see the tach needle drop.


The car shifts great in all other gears and I love everything else about the car. I hope Ford and it's engineers can do something about this.

End of Rant!
The VW DSG has its own issues, but the reason you might not feel an idle release shudder with the VW DSG is the fact that it uses oil soaked clutches which are less efficient than the Dry dual clutches used in the PowerShift DCT.

It's unfortunate that you've experienced a violent shudder on idle release, however couldn't this be due to the fact that you're trying to engage the 1st gear clutch with no throttle applied and creeping forward that causes an uneven wear on the clutch? I'm not sure, I try not to creep forward at 1-2 mph without applying the throttle, because as in a manual the clutch may over heat and get damaged quite easily. If it's down hill and there is a sufficient slope to allow gravity to pull the car forward to close the gap I try to put it into neutral and coast. As I would with my 5 speed Prizm, so as to not wear the clutch starting and stopping constantly.

So far my DCT in my SEL has been smooth as silk on take off, but I've tried not to abuse it so much from a stand still. I have however let it run up higher in the rev range occasionally and don't try to constantly get it to shift below 2000 rpm in town either. However I only have around 1900 miles on my 4/23/12 build so far.

I haven't driven the VW dsg yet, but I have had the chance to drive the 1.4L multi-air turbo Dart DCT and it wasn't really any better than my Focus's PowerShift DCT at least to me. But then again I'm no journalist, it was ok, and slightly better than the regular 6 at with the 2.0L i4 Dart, but the fact that it more closely mimics a torque converter auto really doesn't entice me.

Of course the few times that I do forget and just let off the brake and allow the car to move forward from a stop on its own it hasn't shuddered, but I feel like that would still be abusive to the transmission to let the clutch out without intending to accelerate even moderately.

I would rank them as follows:
Focus 2.0L GDI mated to DCT> Dart 1.4L Turbo mated to DDCT> Cruze 1.4L Turbo mated to 6AT

Of course that's just my personal opinion, and at least until I have an issue with the DCT I'll still prefer it to a regular automatic. I wouldn't however mind a 6MT with similar gear ratios as I do kind of miss shifting some of the time, the little toggle switch just isn't the same. That's why it was so much fun to drive the Focus ST a few times around a test course.
suss6052 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 01:38 PM   #1264
dberezin
Focus Rookie
 
dberezin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Fan#: 96949
Location: Yardley, PA
What I Drive: 2012 Tuxedo Black SEL 303A

Posts: 15
FF Reputation: 1 dberezin Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suss6052 View Post
It's unfortunate that you've experienced a violent shudder on idle release, however couldn't this be due to the fact that you're trying to engage the 1st gear clutch with no throttle applied and creeping forward that causes an uneven wear on the clutch? I'm not sure, I try not to creep forward at 1-2 mph without applying the throttle, because as in a manual the clutch may over heat and get damaged quite easily. If it's down hill and there is a sufficient slope to allow gravity to pull the car forward to close the gap I try to put it into neutral and coast. As I would with my 5 speed Prizm, so as to not wear the clutch starting and stopping constantly.
What else can you do in heavy traffic? As an example, I come off the PA Turnpike to go onto Route 1 and there is 10 lanes of traffic from the tolls "cattle-chuting" to 1 lane. You can't keep stepping on the gas - you'll hit the car in front of you. So you naturally let your foot off the brake to creep forward. That's when the shuddering happens. With a "real" manual, you have a lot of control with playing with the clutch and gas in first gear.
dberezin is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #1265
suss6052
Focus Addict
 
suss6052's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Fan#: 95752
Location: ..., MI
What I Drive: 2013 Ford Focus ST2 Ingot Silver

Posts: 11,656
FF Reputation: 21 suss6052 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberezin View Post
What else can you do in heavy traffic? As an example, I come off the PA Turnpike to go onto Route 1 and there is 10 lanes of traffic from the tolls "cattle-chuting" to 1 lane. You can't keep stepping on the gas - you'll hit the car in front of you. So you naturally let your foot off the brake to creep forward. That's when the shuddering happens. With a "real" manual, you have a lot of control with playing with the clutch and gas in first gear.
I would try to maintain sufficient distance to keep the speed above 5 mph. Barring this I would try to sit there until there is a sufficient gap to accelerate normally/lightly to at least 5 mph for more than a second or two. Basically I would try at all costs to avoid the kinds of abusive driving that you're saying is necessary. You needed to drive it like a manual in these cases.

Obviously you can't always leave 500 feet in front of you, but you shouldn't need to, once rolling the goal is to try and prevent repeating the situation in which severe clutch wear can occur.

I also can't say if it's driver error or a mechanical issue for certain, but riding the clutch in a manual is a good way to ruin it as well.

I can't tell you what you have to do, but it does seem that it may be heat related due to slipping the 1st gear clutch rather than a smooth engagement as is intended. By allowing the car to creep forward it is heating up the clutch much quicker than necessary. With a true manual you can hold it briefly on the bite point then release it, but you do generally need to still apply sufficient throttle to prevent the car from stalling.
suss6052 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 04:40 PM   #1266
csvt2060
Focus Addict
 
csvt2060's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Fan#: 84122
Location: Northwest Indiana, IN
What I Drive: 2013 Ford Escape Titanium

Posts: 772
FF Reputation: 2 csvt2060 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by suss6052 View Post
I would try to maintain sufficient distance to keep the speed above 5 mph. Barring this I would try to sit there until there is a sufficient gap to accelerate normally/lightly to at least 5 mph for more than a second or two. Basically I would try at all costs to avoid the kinds of abusive driving that you're saying is necessary. You needed to drive it like a manual in these cases.

Obviously you can't always leave 500 feet in front of you, but you shouldn't need to, once rolling the goal is to try and prevent repeating the situation in which severe clutch wear can occur.

I also can't say if it's driver error or a mechanical issue for certain, but riding the clutch in a manual is a good way to ruin it as well.

I can't tell you what you have to do, but it does seem that it may be heat related due to slipping the 1st gear clutch rather than a smooth engagement as is intended. By allowing the car to creep forward it is heating up the clutch much quicker than necessary. With a true manual you can hold it briefly on the bite point then release it, but you do generally need to still apply sufficient throttle to prevent the car from stalling.
I see what you are trying to get at here....but this transmission doesn't need any excuses. It's marketed as an automatic, so no one shoudl be concered about "clutch wear" or "tricks" to make it not shudder.

99% of people would have no clue what you are talking about nor should they be concerned with it when driving an automatic transmission....and they will continue to lose customers left and right until they either market it differently and fix the issues or go back to a standard converter trans.
csvt2060 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 04:46 PM   #1267
Freedom540
Focus Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fan#: 98402
Location: Stafford, VA
What I Drive: 2012 Silver Focus Titanium

Posts: 13
FF Reputation: 1 Freedom540 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Is it possible for the transmission to forget the update after receiving it? I got the update a couple months ago but returned to Ford to have a clunking in the suspension fixed (strut bearings which are once again clunking) and after the repair i noticed the transmission seems to be up to its old pre-flash tricks. Is this possible?!
Freedom540 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 05:19 PM   #1268
suss6052
Focus Addict
 
suss6052's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Fan#: 95752
Location: ..., MI
What I Drive: 2013 Ford Focus ST2 Ingot Silver

Posts: 11,656
FF Reputation: 21 suss6052 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by csvt2060 View Post
I see what you are trying to get at here....but this transmission doesn't need any excuses. It's marketed as an automatic, so no one shoudl be concered about "clutch wear" or "tricks" to make it not shudder.

99% of people would have no clue what you are talking about nor should they be concerned with it when driving an automatic transmission....and they will continue to lose customers left and right until they either market it differently and fix the issues or go back to a standard converter trans.
They already have a standard torque converter transmission with its own spate of issues as used in the current Fusion/Escape et al. I've experienced more problems with the 6F35 I drove in a 2011 Fusion than I have in any of the DPS6 DCT gearboxes I've driven. Hard engagement into first gear, first the car failed to move at all with light throttle, then it slammed into gear and chirped the tires.

I've also been a witness to on at least two different occasions where the torque converter pump shaft sheared on the AX4N/4F50N leaving the car with no drive what so ever, so to say that they've gotten all the kinks worked out of their standard FWD automatic is yet to be proven.

Of course they should have highlighted the differences more when marketing the DCT. From their own media highlighting the advantages of the DCT it said it was designed to try and coach the driver away from abusive low speed driving conditions such as the 0-2 mph repeated stops, or going up hill riding the brake at 1-2 mph. This was to be done using a series of micro pulses to induce a shudder to teach the driver to not to do this. Being that I seem to understand this I haven't had any issues with mine, but as usual your mileage may vary.

I would not have looked closer at the Focus had it only offered a torque converter backed planetary automatic or a CVT automatic gearbox.

If it had a 6 speed manual available I would consider this, or possibly the MTX-75, however the MTX-75 had essentially the same gear ratios as my older car.

Again it could also be that mine was a later build, however even the earlier ones I'd driven had been well behaved while I was driving them, even when I was listening and feeling for this bad behavior. So how much of that is due to the transmission protecting itself from this abusive low speed behavior, and how much is due to software being miscalibrated?

Again I don't know, and yes they could have marketed it as being an automated manual, that however would turn people off right away. Now how many people are actually experiencing issues is not known except by the owners and Ford. I do wish that those who are having issues would get them resolved successfully without resorting to getting rid of the car, but not everyone will be satisfied.
suss6052 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 09:14 PM   #1269
dberezin
Focus Rookie
 
dberezin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Fan#: 96949
Location: Yardley, PA
What I Drive: 2012 Tuxedo Black SEL 303A

Posts: 15
FF Reputation: 1 dberezin Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by csvt2060 View Post
I see what you are trying to get at here....but this transmission doesn't need any excuses. It's marketed as an automatic, so no one shoudl be concered about "clutch wear" or "tricks" to make it not shudder.

99% of people would have no clue what you are talking about nor should they be concerned with it when driving an automatic transmission....and they will continue to lose customers left and right until they either market it differently and fix the issues or go back to a standard converter trans.
I have to agree with you. You shouldn't have to baby the car when driving it. We are the minority here at the forums. Most people are going to think the car is an automatic transmission. They want to get in the car and go without thinking about it. They don't care how it works. I don't want to know the details of how the car works either. I really just want it to work without issues. (that's why I buy Apple computers and not Windows computers - but that's for a different forum).
dberezin is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2012, 09:55 PM   #1270
suss6052
Focus Addict
 
suss6052's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Fan#: 95752
Location: ..., MI
What I Drive: 2013 Ford Focus ST2 Ingot Silver

Posts: 11,656
FF Reputation: 21 suss6052 Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dberezin View Post
I have to agree with you. You shouldn't have to baby the car when driving it. We are the minority here at the forums. Most people are going to think the car is an automatic transmission. They want to get in the car and go without thinking about it. They don't care how it works. I don't want to know the details of how the car works either. I really just want it to work without issues. (that's why I buy Apple computers and not Windows computers - but that's for a different forum).
Most people need to actually pay attention to driving and how their car works, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Ford did say you can drive it as an automatic, but they have also programmed in little reminders/ coaches trying to urge the driver to reconsider behavior that might damage the car.

That's the problem with people being unwilling/ unable to adapt to a different sort of transmission. For example people complained that with a CVT you can't feel the distinct ratios so they programmed in some arbitrary step points to simulate a normal automatic and therefore eliminated the efficiency gains.

No one said anything about babying the car, but there is a difference between running it through the rev range vs starting and stopping, or creeping forward at 1-2 mph. One is slightly more abusive, and if you had a sloppy torque converter (at least in the unlocked state) you would still build a lot of heat, but it would have a fluid cooler to remove some of the heat, and the inner workings of a torque converter allow the car to creep forward slowly without as much damage being inflicted compared to a slipping clutch. A dry clutch system is more efficient than a wet clutch dct like the older version of the VW DSG, and the Planetary gear set automatic backed by a torque converter, however like a manual it's not as good at creeping forward.

I'm sure a 6F35 could probably be retrofitted if you really must have a torque converter planetary gear set automatic, I'll stick to the DCT thank you very much, it seems much more reliable than any of the other Ford FWD automatic transmissions I've had the pleasure/ misfortune to drive, at least in this size of vehicle. The 6F50 in the Taurus seems to hold up ok as far as I know, but the 6F35 was at least a bit of a gamble as it was a lighter duty version of the 6F50. The AX4N/4F50N were genuinely terrible as far as reliability was concerned.

Even if I drive it in fully automatic and don't mess around with it I haven't had any issues with it so far, but as soon as that changes I'll let you know.

Could they have marketed it differently sure. I'm really not sure why North America got it before Europe at least in the Fiesta, as the Fiesta still had a 4 speed automatic in Europe.

TL:DR---> I like my DCT but your mileage may vary. I don't wish to make excuses for the behavior of the gearbox, as mine works properly even when I let the computer apply the clutch either in reverse or lightly going forward. I do however know how to drive a manual and therefore tend to pay a bit more attention to everything or at least try to while driving. This makes me a bit odd, sure.
suss6052 is offline  
    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 PM.


Copyright 2002-2014 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : Terms of Use : Privacy Policy : Advertise Information : Site Map

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Acura TLX. You can find all Ford Focus related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area.