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Old 06-06-2012, 09:45 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post
That's false. I suggest you avoid practicing law, as you wouldn't fair very well. Also avoid engineering fields, as you would fair poorly on making conclusions based on the facts at hand.
I do very well in my engineering field, thank you. I'll ask you again: What makes your assumption more accurate than FocusBoy58's assumption?

Or will you just ignore the question?

You both had one and only one truth in your calculations--the FWHP from FocusBoy58's recent dyno. Neither of you knew the true parasitic loss, or the actual crank horsepower from his engine. Due to that fact, you were both calculating with the same degree of accuracy.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:54 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TboneZX3 View Post
I do very well in my engineering field, thank you. I'll ask you again: What makes your assumption more accurate than FocusBoy58's assumption?

Or will you just ignore the question?

You both had one and only one truth in your calculations--the FWHP from FocusBoy58's recent dyno. Neither of you knew the true parasitic loss, or the actual crank horsepower from his engine. Due to that fact, you were both calculating with the same degree of accuracy.
I took the facts we have. One SAE certified crank horsepower number for all 2012 foci, and several stock wheel horsepower numbers. (FocusBoys were 148whp as well I believe, could be wrong.) Used that to calculate the parasitic loss, and then applied that to his current whp result. Obviously we have to assume the dynos were sent up correctly, which could be a stretch. I've stated all of this already I believe?

Based on your logic. No stock 2012 owner can say they have a 160hp car, unless they have the engine put on an engine dyno. Assuming the motor makes the SAE certified numbers, isn't a poor assumption I don't believe. At the very least its a conservative one.

From my original post on the subject...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post
How can you say I have it backwards? I haven't shown math. Show me math that states it is 200hp crank?

160 crank horsepower.
148whp = 7.5% parasitic loss.

175whp a the same parasitic loss of 7.5% means the car is making 190 crank horsepower.

Unless you pulled the motor and dynoed the stock crank horsepower, those are the only numbers we have to go on.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #83
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Alright guys play nice, take it to PM's if you want to continue
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:57 AM   #84
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LMFAO at you guys arguing over HP, who cars it makes at the crank what it makes to the wheels is what counts. You can't drive just a engine. you need the drivetrain etc to make it move lol

Nice numbers man. I'm sure you will update us when tuning becomes available.
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:58 AM   #85
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why does crank hp even matter?
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:59 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post
I took the facts we have. One SAE certified crank horsepower number for all 2012 foci, and several stock wheel horsepower numbers. (FocusBoys were 148whp as well I believe, could be wrong.) Used that to calculate the parasitic loss, and then applied that to his current whp result. Obviously we have to assume the dynos were sent up correctly, which could be a stretch. I've stated all of this already I believe?

Based on your logic. No stock 2012 owner can say they have a 160hp car, unless they have the engine put on an engine dyno. Assuming the motor makes the SAE certified numbers, isn't a poor assumption I don't believe. At the very least its a conservative one.
Ford has recently been in the business of under rating the engine packages... for whatever reason. Maybe they are still feeling the ill effects of overratting the 1999 cobra... who knows.

You're playing dumb, you refuse to recognize that Ford's numbers are obviously deflated. If you actually can't accept that, that means you opening believe this platform only suffers a 7.5% drivetrain loss.

Those are really your only two options. Do we know the exact engine hp? No we don't, but as Tbone was trying to point out to you, FocusBoys number were no more or less accurate to the real world than yours. You were faulting someone and your reason was just as flawed.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:02 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank View Post

You're playing dumb, you refuse to recognize that Ford's numbers are obviously deflated. If you actually can't accept that, that means you opening believe this platform only suffers a 7.5% drivetrain loss.

Those are really your only two options. Do we know the exact engine hp? No we don't, but as Tbone was trying to point out to you, FocusBoys number were no more or less accurate to the real world than yours. You were faulting someone and your reason was just as flawed.
Learn to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post

Yes we all know that the stock motor is probably underrated, but we have no way of proving it, or how much. These are the facts. It should also be noted that GTIs with DSG have far less parastic loss than a traditional automatic, hence the better fuel economy, (and better than manual GTIs). Using that logic a DCT should have less parasitic loss than a manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank View Post
The 2013 GT500 is in the same boat. Ford rates the engine hp at 650 but it was recently dynoed at 614rwhp. That's only 5% drivetrain loss..... So either Ford has discovered a miracle drivetrain which seems to defy the laws of physics or Ford is in the game of under rating their hp figures.

Which are you more likely to believe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post
I totally agree that's probably the case. I'm just saying there is no way to prove it without pulling a stock engine and putting it on an engine dyno. (Which is the only accurate way to measure an engine's output anyway.) Chassis dynos show gains, but aren't the most accurate way of figuring out true horsepower. He gained, 27whp or so, which is awesome. Probably could get 5 more with a tune.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:04 AM   #88
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Could we all agree on a parasitic loss so we can move this thread forward? I think 10-12% is a fair spot for comparisons or arguments.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:05 AM   #89
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Either we believe in the miracle of 7.5% drivetrain loss or we acknowledge that it is a 200+ hp Focus. I dont really care, either one is a benefit to all of us.

Can't we all just get along?
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylesvt720 View Post
I took the facts we have. One SAE certified crank horsepower number for all 2012 foci, and several stock wheel horsepower numbers.

...

Assuming the motor makes the SAE certified numbers, isn't a poor assumption I don't believe. At the very least its a conservative one.
What I'm saying is that your assumption of that SAE certified crank horsepower, as it relates to FocusBoy58's engine is as accurate as his assumption of parasitic loss. Those two assumed factors make both of your calculations equally accurate.

You believe using the SAE certified number isn't a poor assumption, and that's fair. It is an estimate of what HP his engine is outputting at the crank. Historically, parasitic loss with a FWD car & manual transaxle (which is what the DCT is) is 12-15% (and nowhere near 7.5%). From an engineering perspective, 12%-15% also is not a poor assumption. It is an estimate.

So, each of you took an estimated value and used those values in conjunction with the only factual number you had, and made a crank HP estimate.

I agree with you that we can only arrive at an accurate crank HP value with an engine dyno. What I'm trying to understand is, if that was your point all along (as you stated) why did you bother countering FocusBoy58's estimated values with your own estimated values? Was is just to show that you can both make inaccurate calculations?
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