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Old 04-06-2012, 07:49 AM   #21
AMMO-Duke
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P/S fluid is not so much for lubrication as it is for hydraulic pressure. You need the fluid in the rack to make it work. Air compresses, fluid does not. If you removed the fluid it would die quickly.
I'm a little confused. At this point, the pump has already been removed and the fluid is just sitting in the rack and lines. Are you saying that you need the fluid in the rack to make it work manually(without the pump)?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #22
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I'm a little confused. At this point, the pump has already been removed and the fluid is just sitting in the rack and lines. Are you saying that you need the fluid in the rack to make it work manually(without the pump)?
Sorry for the extremely delayed response. I haven't been on in a while.

Yes. The steering rack operates on hydraulic pressure. It works because fluid cannot be compressed. If there was only air in it it would work very very poorly, if at all, and it would burn out quickly.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:57 PM   #23
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I thought the hydraulic pump(PS pump) was more of an assist to the rack? It shouldnt need the fluid to work, i should just have some type grease to keep it lubed.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:32 PM   #24
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OK guys, we may be getting each other confused a bit. I have done a little research on this and here is what I know so far...

At its heart, our steering rack IS a manual rack. When you turn the wheel, you have a direct mechanical connection to the tires via a pinion(gear) that moves the rack left to right. The "power" part of the rack is a piston with a chamber on both sides filled with fluid. The system applies pressure to either side of this piston to aid your manual steering effort.

When you remove the pump, it is just a mechanical rack(with a high gear ratio). At this point, if you leave the fluid in the rack, you will have to expend some of your energy as you move this fluid from side to side when you turn. This is because the piston is part of the rack and when you turn the wheel and move the rack, you are also moving the piston. Like I said earlier, it will be easier to steer with no fluid. Air is much easier to move around.

I have also found out that I was right about the grease. If you take the rack apart and grease everything(not fill it with grease, you still have to let the chambers breath/vent), you have made it even easier to steer and better longevity as a manual rack.

I will be performing this soon on my car and I will document the whole process with pics and post on here when done. If I am wrong on this, I guess I will have to eat my words, but this mod is very popular with other vehicles and that is where I got most of my info.

Daryl
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:50 PM   #25
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Very interesting. I will be waiting for the update!
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:39 AM   #26
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Can you give us your references on this. I'm thinking about picking up a used rack to convert, that way I can leave my entire stock setup alone and remove it complete.
Thanks again.
Also does anyone know if an older escort manual rack could be made to work
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:00 PM   #27
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Can you give us your references on this.
Just do a Google search for ps delete/power steering, etc. You will find more stuff than you can read through. Here's a few to get you started.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/steering2.htm

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2726495

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=184202

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/19...-3-update.html

http://www.sr20forum.com/all-motor/2...-delete-3.html
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #28
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I'm also interested in seeing if this works. My explanation is based on my experience with hydraulic racks (i.e. Just about every rack that isn't manual). If the Focus is equipped with essentially a power assisted manual rack then you may very well be right. I however will not be the guinea pig for this.

Also I don't know how much experience you have with hydraulics, but the whole point of having fluid in a system is to amplify force for so that it is easier to push/move something than it would be with a mechanical connection. Take for instance the braking system. The brake pedal pushrod pushes into the master cylinder with a very small surface area and the brake fluid transfers the energy to the piston in the caliper. Now for simplicity sake we'll assume the piston in the caliper is twice the size of that in the master cylinder this means that for every 1" the master cylinder is depressed the caliper piston will be pushed to move .5" with twice the force of the input on the master cylinder. Do you realize how hard it would be to stop a car with the force you could mechanically push on the caliper piston? As it is you get a high force multiplier (around 10>1 or more) with an engine operated power assist. Now apply all of that to the rack (this all assuming of course it is hydraulically operated). All of these factors come into play with the inputs on your steering wheel. Why do you think it requires so many turns of the wheel to turn the wheels <90 degrees? Because it is giving you that torque multiplier for easier use. If you tried to replace the hydraulic fluid with air (that compresses) you may only be able to turn the wheels very little, if at all, and though it may not be that difficult it would be useless. If it is a mechanical rack with a hydraulic assist then it will be much more difficult to turn the wheels because you lose that torque multiplier; and based on the design it may use the P/S fluid as a lubricant / cooler. In which case it would burn out the rack. That is where I got my conclusion that it would not work (or for very long). If this rack is designed differently than I have described and will work as you plan on trying then more power to you. I have no problem admitting I am wrong. Good luck man. Hope it works!

EDIT: Honda (as I see you are basing your info on) are designed very differently than Foci. Even their auto transmissions operate in an entirely different way than ours. Just FFT

EDIT 2: Looking at your top link if you go to the bottom of the page it shows what I'm pretty sure it the design of the rack that the focus has. If you try to replace the fluid in a a rack designed like that one with air you will burn it up if it functions at all. This I have seen happen....to my car.
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Old 04-28-2012, 01:52 PM   #29
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PowerFocer,

I agree with your post above. You are technically correct, however, I believe we are discussing this from 2 different perspectives. Everything I am talking about is AFTER the Power Steering Pump has been removed. Once you remove the pump, you no longer have a hydraulic system. You have a manual system that has residual hydraulic fluid in it that is in the way. Does that make sense?

Quote:
EDIT 2: Looking at your top link if you go to the bottom of the page it shows what I'm pretty sure it the design of the rack that the focus has.
I agree.

Quote:
If you try to replace the fluid in a a rack designed like that one with air you will burn it up if it functions at all.
Once you remove the pump, there is nothing to burn up. It is just a manual rack.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by AMMO-Duke View Post
PowerFocer,
Once you remove the pump, there is nothing to burn up. It is just a manual rack.
That's incorrect. The rack requires the fluid to function as per design. Just because there is no high pressure assist or way of replacing the fluid (i.e. the pump) doesn't mean it isn't a hydraulic system. A brake system with no booster is still a hydraulic system.
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