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Old 06-10-2011, 09:51 PM   #1
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Hydrogen

A guy a work just ordered a hydrogen generator from hho kits for his Avalanche and told me about the kit. I've read about this quite a bit actually and from the articles and videos determined its not really a viable idea.

However, the kits I seen were extremely basic and used up carbon rods very quickly which can be very expensive. THIS KIT just uses the generator, some water and lye. According to their chart and depending how I tune the car, I could get anywhere from 45-50mpg.

Does anyone have any real world experience with hydrogen hybrids?


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Old 06-11-2011, 04:44 AM   #2
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Do a search on gas saving car appliances.Most cars are tuned to burn 99% of its fuel as is from the factory.To waste money on a 1% is foolish.Consumer reports has testing and Popular Mechanics did a review and testing of so called gas saving products.
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:33 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by awnuts View Post
Do a search on gas saving car appliances.Most cars are tuned to burn 99% of its fuel as is from the factory.To waste money on a 1% is foolish.Consumer reports has testing and Popular Mechanics did a review and testing of so called gas saving products.
I haven't done the search yet but I'm sure that statement is false. If cars burneld 99% of their fuel (and used all 99%) we wouldn't need catalytic converters. Also, my car isn't direct injection so everyone knows that DI is more efficient than normal efi.

I know the idea behind hydrogen injection is that the hydrogen acts like a catalyst. Much like the cat convertor. The difference is, the reaction happens in the cylinder so the (normally excess) fuel is actually put to use. Rather than just being burned up in the cat converter.
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Old 06-11-2011, 03:13 PM   #4
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Cars have to meet a variety of emmisions standards, I have been in a dyno cell watching them tune for emmisions. You can increase the combustion temperature with more timing and leaner injection, which yeilds more economy, but the nitrogen oxide emmisions skyrockets. So the manufacturers, which have to also meet fuel economy standards, do the best tune they can. What is the cost of the kit and consumables and how long will it take to payback with the increased mpgs?
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:20 PM   #5
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Cars have to meet a variety of emmisions standards, I have been in a dyno cell watching them tune for emmisions. You can increase the combustion temperature with more timing and leaner injection, which yeilds more economy, but the nitrogen oxide emmisions skyrockets. So the manufacturers, which have to also meet fuel economy standards, do the best tune they can. What is the cost of the kit and consumables and how long will it take to payback with the increased mpgs?
Well, the kit is $500.

I would need a SCT tuner (because Delta Force won't support the focus even though I already have that software) The tuner retails for $380

I'll estimate $50/yr spent on water and lye. Those are the only two consumables.

We're at $930 in case you weren't counting. lol


I drive roughly 25k miles per year and most of it is highway. My car averages 35mpg on the highway (real world) at 65mph.

Let's assume I would get just 40mpg with this kit.

That's a difference of 89 gallons of fuel per year @ $3.50/gal (low ball)

Now we're at $311/yr saved.

It will take 3 years to pay the whole deal off at those numbers.

I'm definitely gonna wait and see what the other guy's increase is. If its more substantial or gas goes up over $4 again I might consider it. Otherwise, it's totally NOT worth it. lol
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Old 06-11-2011, 04:24 PM   #6
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What he is talking about is basicly running his car off water , the Hydrogen generator takes the "H" out of the H20 which is VERY combustable , you run a line from the hydrogen generator to the enging and the engine sucks in the hydrogen and from the testing I have done and seen it helps a little , hard to say how long it would take to recover 500.00 in gas savings from it tho , you can make the H Generators your self very easy

I only wish our cars burned 99% of the fuel we are FAR from 99%, In reality only 14 -16% from the energy of the fuel is actually used to move the car down the road ,most engines retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20% which SUCKS , Much is lost in Assy, , idle , etc

Tom
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:21 AM   #7
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Wink HHO on demand -- the magic in a bottle?

ENERGY LOSSES IN A VEHICLE
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/...gy_losses.html

My opinion and thoughts based on my experience and lab results -- your mileage WILL vary.

Best ways to save gas before installing HHO systems, define a NEW BASELINE:

The #1 most cost efficient way to reduce gas consumption. Reduce driving. Don't drive around when you don't have to. When you do drive, plan and combine activities to reduce the number of trips and miles.

#2 Keep your tires inflated to the recommended pressure plus a couple more pounds. Depending on the tire and the tread, additional over-inflation can provide significant gas savings (and excessive tire wear, and possible handling issues.) But heck, if you want to consider a complete HHO system for $900, new tires in 14 months might be cheaper. (and remove golf clubs, bodies, lead shielding, and ammo cans from trunk until you need them.)

#3 Tune up / clean the engine. Good plugs/wires, PCV, new oil, good fuel, etc. OR / AND Advanced tune up with resistors etc.

#4 Driving habits - change them. Install a Scangauge on your steering wheel column and monitor your gas mileage and TPS (throttle pressure) as one of the 4 variables while you drive. Consistent TP and gradual acceleration will reduce the average TP number saving lots o' fuel. Most people have little clue how their foot interacts with the pedal -- drive like you have a ping pong ball under your foot. Yes, Speed Racer, you might be very surprised! Try hypermiling for a few days.

#5: Other stuff - aerodynamics, fuel additives, carnuba wax, incantations, etc...

Depending on your starting baseline, the 4 items above could initially increase gas usage by 10-50%, really no BS. Items 2-4 could cost-effectively increase mileage by 10-25% (initially).


HHO additive to improve combustion efficiency:

It's not magic. There is no silver bullet, however measurable consistent improvement for baseline is possible.

I have a bit of experience with HHO systems, as I worked with a development team (in a big red country factory), designing, integrating, installing, and testing HHO systems with a proprietary benign electrolyte, on various types of vehicles.

IMO @StangGTT has got it right in his posts above.

Quote:
It will take 3 years to pay the whole deal off at those numbers.
... if your lucky. $900 PDV can leverage a good bit of petrol.


It's about Return on Investment (ROI). If your driving a diesel truck non-stop, then yes, the ROI can potentially be extremely good -- possibly a no-brainier in that case, but additional maintenance of the truck will be required. Delivery truck, taxi cabs, trash truck, postage vehicle, etc... are all potential candidates for investigation.

If petrol goes to $7, $8+ /gallon, then I imagine there will be posts on how to run a car on dog doo, and yes the 5-15% fuel improvement that an HHO on-demand system may provide, might provide ROI.

Based on my personal experiences, there are a lot of caveats, issues, and serious potential problems when integrating and operating an HHO system. You must know what your doing when integrating a system. I was involved in both fails and successes first hand. A key is to match a cost effective integrated system to a specific engine/vehicle requirement while making it maintainable. There are limitations based on the laws of physics and rules based on empirical data from testing labs - not too many fairies or real magic are available at this time.
NO: the most expensive biggest Billy Bob generator with the most gas output with an advanced PWM and EFIE (O2/MAP_F) and bla bla bla bolted on and wired up is typically not going to do anything but waste your time and money.
There is no mystical water fuel that defies physics. Anyone that tells you different is A) lying or B) ill-informed. If ever in doubt, refer to A or B and grip your wallet.

A good match and integration might get you 10-15% fuel improvement constantly and maybe other big % numbers to boast about initially and inconsistently. Establish a solid baseline. A bad match and integration will increase fuel consumption by 10-20% and could even damage an engine.

If you inefficiently expend energy to transfer (convert it to another form) or create a fuel then you are already loosing. ( The amount of heat produced by any system is typically a good clue of amount of inefficiency). Understand the basic science of F/A ratio, ECU closed-loop control with Lamba input, and what KOH does to aluminum intakes before proceeding to burn your hands with KOH and even mess with your O2 sensors.

If there is anyone on this forum running a HHO system successfully for any extended period of time I would love to swap stories.


A few online documents if your interested in the topic (google them):

hydrogen_supplemented_gasoline_caltech.pdf ; Hydrogen as a fuel supplement.docx (re:NASA)
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Last edited by CitizenPete; 04-11-2012 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:37 AM   #8
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@StangGTT

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I'm definitely gonna wait and see what the other guy's increase is. If its more substantial or gas goes up over $4 again I might consider it. Otherwise, it's totally NOT worth it. lol
Try to determine the baseline for the vehicle before the HHO add. Does he currently get the manufacturers estimated gas mileage for the vehicle? Be certain to understand what other changes were made at the time he installed the HHO supplemental fuel system, to attribute only the delta difference due to the HHO. Also you might wait 2-3 months after a successful installation in order to measure what his up time and results are in real world operation.
From reading your posts I believe you have a realistic handle on this topic.
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