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Old 11-06-2007, 09:41 PM   #61
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yeah, they aren't that bad at all.......
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:45 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedOften View Post
You compare peak tq values, but that's like comparing power only at 7200 rpm. The total area under that tq line is the usable tq. In the cars you used for examples, their peak tq while not an outstandingly high number were all very flat tq curves, and or have their peake tq come much much sooner than the SVT.

Take two SVT's one with less hp and the other with more tq. The one with more tq will win in the 1/4, as well as on a road course b/c it'll be able to accelerate faster. Who cares who has the higher top speed, it's who gets there first right? You'll get there first with the greater overall useable tq.

As an example: 70 charger running down a Ferrari GTP:
Who's got the tq?

I'm sure the Ferrari has the hp advantage at 12000 rpms.. but...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

Tom came up with the idea of lowering the rpm at which the IM switchs runners when he first started tuning the cars so it's not a new idea.
As far as the coil, you're not going to push it any more than someone who's pushing 300whp out of their engine. I'll believe a 3-5whp gain when I see a dyno comparing the two.. My opinion is that it's a placebo effect. It may improve the overall smoothness of the engine, but it's not going to give the any gains.
Yep you are correct about the usable powerband on the SVT (It sucks in stock form).

But what do you think would happen if the SVT with more hp and less torque had proper gearing to take advantage of the different powerband? Only through proper gearing can an engine take advantage of the power it produces out on the open road (no matter what an engine or chassis dyno says). Dynos are a great "tuning" asset but means very little out on the road where many other variables must be considered. Hence my 800hp Supra v.s. 520hp Corvette comparison.

Comparing a 70's musclecar and *ANY* exotic is like comparing an F1 open style race car to a NASCAR Nextel stock car (it's silly). Put the same two cars on several different types of tracks and the results would favor the Ferrari. It's not built just to go in a straight line and make a lot of noise! I've seen that video before and it bores me to death.

And like I said before (if you actually read everything I wrote), horsepower and torque are only ONE of many variables. Having a peaky hp/tq powerband works just fine *IF* you have gearing that is properly designed to drop each gear change into the sweet spot of the engine on each upshift. It's called PROPER gear spacing. This is the sole reason a 6-speed transmission is better than a 5-speed transmission. The gears have better spacing and can provide increased performance (in theory). The Focus SVT uses a 6-speed transmission but it feels like 4th through 6th gears are all overdrives (I don't have the exact ratios in front of me). On upshifts @ WOT, The SVT gearing drops the rpm well below the sweet spot in the powerband, especially with the stock tune.

Most of my direct "comparisons" were cars in the same class and same dollar range as the SVT, making them "direct competition". My comparisons of lightweight but "lower" horsepower cars that perform really well were used as examples of good engineering. Most of those super lightweight cars have peaky powerbands, but because they are geared right from the factory they can take on cars with twice as much horsepower ratings on paper! A powerband as shown on a "dyno" (ie: on paper) means nothing if you can't get it to the ground or the transmission isn't geared correctly to take advatage of the power. This is one of the SVT's limiters. The gearing isn't even close to optimal. However, taking 1,000 pounds of weight out of the car would make more of a difference than changing the gearing (but think about what you could probably achieve if you could do both).

I would lump just about any $18,000-$20,000 "performance oriented" economy based pocket rocket into the same competition as the SVT. The truth of the matter is, the SVT sits at the bottom of the class in power AND good usable engine upgrades (unless of course you want to go forced induction). People rant and rave about the SVT Focus being so technologically advanced but it isn't at all. Ford didn't do anything with the SVT that hasn't been done many times before on production cars. Don't get me wrong, I love the handling of the SVT (another benefit of a low weight platform) but the power delivery is not very good. Much of the blame there can be attributed to the gearing (and a horrible stock tune).

I'm fully aware that lowering the rpm of the switchover from long to short runners is nothing novel and that Tom does this with his tune. I only mentioned it because it will no doubt make for a much more pleasant powerband compared to the abrupt and peaky transition of the stock switchover. This "abrupt" and rather high rpm switchover shows up on the dyno curve and is very noticeable (on a basically stock car as mine)...

As for the MSD coil: You obviously do not have any clue as to what I am talking about.

The coil all by it's self doesn't do anything as far as power (as I stated before). The power increase is from indexing and modifying the plugs. This is an old trick racers of any "combustable engine" have tried and proved for over a 100 years (it's nothing new and is a PROVEN engine blueprinting technique that will almost always increase power just a little). You can't do the "MOD" without the coil (or some other way of increasing spark strength). The modified electrode is nothing new either. The coil is just 1/3rd of the equation to make this work. Without it, the engine runs poorly and misses at lower rpm due to the much larger spark gap.

So, back to the weight issue....

Anybody care to guess how much difference a properly tuned N/A Focus SVT will perform (ie acceleration, handling etc) by taking out 700-1,000 pounds? I'm somewhat surprised no has done a project like this before.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:38 AM   #63
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yarrr, i'd be really interested to see the outcome myself =)
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:54 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelotonracer2 View Post
Yep you are correct about the usable powerband on the SVT (It sucks in stock form).

But what do you think would happen if the SVT with more hp and less torque had proper gearing to take advantage of the different powerband? Only through proper gearing can an engine take advantage of the power it produces out on the open road (no matter what an engine or chassis dyno says). Dynos are a great "tuning" asset but means very little out on the road where many other variables must be considered. Hence my 800hp Supra v.s. 520hp Corvette comparison.

Comparing a 70's musclecar and *ANY* exotic is like comparing an F1 open style race car to a NASCAR Nextel stock car (it's silly). Put the same two cars on several different types of tracks and the results would favor the Ferrari. It's not built just to go in a straight line and make a lot of noise! I've seen that video before and it bores me to death.

And like I said before (if you actually read everything I wrote), horsepower and torque are only ONE of many variables. Having a peaky hp/tq powerband works just fine *IF* you have gearing that is properly designed to drop each gear change into the sweet spot of the engine on each upshift. It's called PROPER gear spacing. This is the sole reason a 6-speed transmission is better than a 5-speed transmission. The gears have better spacing and can provide increased performance (in theory). The Focus SVT uses a 6-speed transmission but it feels like 4th through 6th gears are all overdrives (I don't have the exact ratios in front of me). On upshifts @ WOT, The SVT gearing drops the rpm well below the sweet spot in the powerband, especially with the stock tune.

Most of my direct "comparisons" were cars in the same class and same dollar range as the SVT, making them "direct competition". My comparisons of lightweight but "lower" horsepower cars that perform really well were used as examples of good engineering. Most of those super lightweight cars have peaky powerbands, but because they are geared right from the factory they can take on cars with twice as much horsepower ratings on paper! A powerband as shown on a "dyno" (ie: on paper) means nothing if you can't get it to the ground or the transmission isn't geared correctly to take advatage of the power. This is one of the SVT's limiters. The gearing isn't even close to optimal. However, taking 1,000 pounds of weight out of the car would make more of a difference than changing the gearing (but think about what you could probably achieve if you could do both).

I would lump just about any $18,000-$20,000 "performance oriented" economy based pocket rocket into the same competition as the SVT. The truth of the matter is, the SVT sits at the bottom of the class in power AND good usable engine upgrades (unless of course you want to go forced induction). People rant and rave about the SVT Focus being so technologically advanced but it isn't at all. Ford didn't do anything with the SVT that hasn't been done many times before on production cars. Don't get me wrong, I love the handling of the SVT (another benefit of a low weight platform) but the power delivery is not very good. Much of the blame there can be attributed to the gearing (and a horrible stock tune).

I'm fully aware that lowering the rpm of the switchover from long to short runners is nothing novel and that Tom does this with his tune. I only mentioned it because it will no doubt make for a much more pleasant powerband compared to the abrupt and peaky transition of the stock switchover. This "abrupt" and rather high rpm switchover shows up on the dyno curve and is very noticeable (on a basically stock car as mine)...

As for the MSD coil: You obviously do not have any clue as to what I am talking about.

The coil all by it's self doesn't do anything as far as power (as I stated before). The power increase is from indexing and modifying the plugs. This is an old trick racers of any "combustable engine" have tried and proved for over a 100 years (it's nothing new and is a PROVEN engine blueprinting technique that will almost always increase power just a little). You can't do the "MOD" without the coil (or some other way of increasing spark strength). The modified electrode is nothing new either. The coil is just 1/3rd of the equation to make this work. Without it, the engine runs poorly and misses at lower rpm due to the much larger spark gap.

So, back to the weight issue....

Anybody care to guess how much difference a properly tuned N/A Focus SVT will perform (ie acceleration, handling etc) by taking out 700-1,000 pounds? I'm somewhat surprised no has done a project like this before.
I don't care enough to read half of this BS...IMO you type people to death to get them to agree with you .. I stopped when you said 4th through 6th gears feel like over drive gears to you. I suggest going out and playing with 3rd and 4th gears again, as well as researching a little bit about the twin layshaft Getrag transmission that is in our cars. Third and fourth gears arguably pull stronger than any of the other gears b/c they are on that second layshaft which has a better gear for our powerband.

I'll wait on that dyno...
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Old 11-08-2007, 05:57 PM   #65
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^^^Not only that...we don't have any gears that are overdrive.
6th comes in at 1.08:1.

And...I confess, I didn't read all of it either.
This in particular:
On upshifts @ WOT, The SVT gearing drops the rpm well below the sweet spot in the powerband, especially with the stock tune.
I completely disagree with that statement...especially after running Miller Motorsports Park.
2nd-3rd, and 3rd-4th upshifts are perfectly spaced in my book.
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Old 11-08-2007, 06:50 PM   #66
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I think all the gears are very nicely matched......I would like 6th to be a little bit taller to lower the RPM's for highway driving at 70 and above. Other than that, The tranny is great from my perspective. I can hang in 2nd and 3rd forever in the corners. I LOVE that.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedOften View Post
I don't care enough to read half of this BS...IMO you type people to death to get them to agree with you .. I stopped when you said 4th through 6th gears feel like over drive gears to you. I suggest going out and playing with 3rd and 4th gears again, as well as researching a little bit about the twin layshaft Getrag transmission that is in our cars. Third and fourth gears arguably pull stronger than any of the other gears b/c they are on that second layshaft which has a better gear for our powerband.

I'll wait on that dyno...
I said they "felt" like overdrive gears... none of the gears are spaced well, 3rd and 4th are better, but not OPTIMAL. I love how you say "arguably" pull stronger. I happen to think the top of 2nd pulls best (especially from a 50mph punch) but hey what do I know.. LOL

No one has to agree with me at all, and frankly I could care a less. But maybe If you learned how to read, perhaps you might learn something from someone who has MUCH more experience than you. I never laid claim of knowing every single aspect of the Focus SVT as I've only owned the car for 2 months. You obviously can't debate anything beyond getting defensive because it's obviously beyond your scope of knowledge. I'm not out to tell people they are right or wrong. Everything is just my opinion based on 16 years of being in the industry (and owning and working on many of the cars that I have used as examples). However, you do skate around the issues like Tonya Harding with a baseball bat going after Nancy Carrigan!!!

Just FYI, I'm not just some kid spewing stupidity. I've owned and worked on more cars than most people will ever own in a lifetime (and then some) and been involved in building and evaluating engines (in several different industries) before you even turned 8 years old.

I'll be more than happy to offer "proof" soon enough.

The bottom line is... if you think I'm so FOS then please by all means DO NOT READ MY POSTS!

That should be easy enough to understand, right?
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:24 PM   #68
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I think all the gears are very nicely matched......I would like 6th to be a little bit taller to lower the RPM's for highway driving at 70 and above. Other than that, The tranny is great from my perspective. I can hang in 2nd and 3rd forever in the corners. I LOVE that.
I think being over 3,000 rpm above 70 mph has less to do with the trasmission gears than it does with the final drive ratio. Can you get to 60 mph without shifting to 3rd gear in your SVT?

It's like comparing a 2.73 gear to a 3.55 ratio.

There's a performance tradeoff between both (and pluses and minus's for each). Having a lower numeric gear can sometimes be advantageous on a road course (less shifting) and this will also lower the rpm on the highway at cruising speeds. Also in theory you should be able to hit higher peak road speeds. Having a higher numeric gear will improve acceleration (especially in the first few gears) *if* you have adequate traction. On the street, it's usually wiser to have a middle of the road gear ratio v.s. anything extreme either way.

I honestly have not even looked at any of the published info on the Focus SVT gear ratios, transmission or final drive. I'm just basing my observations on what it feels like to other cars I've driven and owned.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:39 PM   #69
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^^^Not only that...we don't have any gears that are overdrive.
6th comes in at 1.08:1.

And...I confess, I didn't read all of it either.
This in particular:
On upshifts @ WOT, The SVT gearing drops the rpm well below the sweet spot in the powerband, especially with the stock tune.
I completely disagree with that statement...especially after running Miller Motorsports Park.
2nd-3rd, and 3rd-4th upshifts are perfectly spaced in my book.
All I know is from a dead stop, running the car to 7000+ rpm in each gear (as you would going in a straight line at the 1/4 mile track for instance) I notice the engine has to play a little catch up. This was when my car was completely stock too (except for a panel K&N).

Perhaps I'm just used to last car that I owned that had a 7300 rpm red line, 3.90 gear and very tightly spaced gears (and twice the hp and torque of the SVT Focus).

WD40 are you using the original stock tune where the DSI switchover is at 6000 rpm? (and is the rest of your car bone stock as well?). Also if the stock timing and fuel curves have been modified this would make a noticeable difference.

EDIT: Oh nevermind, I see you have a tune. I am refering to a Focus SVT stock only. Anything that smooths out the powerband of this car is going to help big time (especially if you improve horsepower and torque) and smooth out that rediculous DSI switchover.
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:39 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SpeedOften View Post
I don't care enough to read half of this BS...IMO you type people to death to get them to agree with you .. I stopped when you said 4th through 6th gears feel like over drive gears to you. I suggest going out and playing with 3rd and 4th gears again, as well as researching a little bit about the twin layshaft Getrag transmission that is in our cars. Third and fourth gears arguably pull stronger than any of the other gears b/c they are on that second layshaft which has a better gear for our powerband.

I'll wait on that dyno...
Not to be a jerk or anything, but it's incredibly stupid to try and shut posters up. I'm not going to say that the poster in question here is a valuable asset, but at the same time I'm not going to say that he's detracting from the discussion. What I am going to say is LET THE MAN SPEAK.

Honestly, there's obviously people who know their stuff on this board...but from what I've seen, there's just not enough. I mean come on, every other thread is pretty much a "Should I buy a SVT" or "SVT vs ST" or "OMg wow does underglow look kewl under my car yoyoy" type thread. You should check out DSM boards where people have HOME MADE engine diagnostic and performance monitors using PALM PILOTS for platforms.

If you went to school in the US, reading comprehension should have been taught to you since the 3rd grade...but if you still refuse to read, at least be considerate enough not to try and scare off people who are trying to bring valuable information and ideas to this board.

/off topic
//rant
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