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Old 04-24-2007, 11:51 AM   #21
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I have witnessed a different GT3 wreck itself at an auto-x event a year or 2 ago. Even though you put as much thought as u can into course design, the fact is a GT3 at 10/10ths will have so much momentum, that they will go a Loooooooooonnnnnngg way before they stop if they are out of control.
True, but it was the Vette that instigated the whole affair and the same argument applies.

"The guy let his friend drive the 4th run. The friend was driving a nice mid 90's Vette and was one of the fastest cars in the run group. So as he came through the finish cones, he went to grab the brakes but got the clutch instead and this is the aftermath...."

In our events, novices (the site lists the driver as a "friend", but is not clear if the driver was a registered participant) are not permitted to drive other people's cars in fun runs. This example is a big reason why. Under no circumstances is someone who is not registered for an event permitted to drive, even in fun runs.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:09 PM   #22
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Wow...poor porsche....and i have a feeling alot of people will be denied on insurance...insurance companies won't cover your car if you are racing it in an event.....I know Geico and progressive won't.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:16 PM   #23
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IMO it seems everybody is putting way too much thought into this thing. Course design was acceptable, the possible experience of the driver was acceptable, therefore there wasn't any red flags before the accident. Basically if you miss the break pedal when you should be doing a firm stop, of course its not gonna end bad. Its not saftey steward nor drivers fault, things happen especially in an unfamilar car. No one is to blame because no one could have forseen this and then said, hey guys theres gonna be an accident soon, lets try and prevent it now
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:18 PM   #24
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Wow...poor porsche....and i have a feeling alot of people will be denied on insurance...insurance companies won't cover your car if you are racing it in an event.....I know Geico and progressive won't.
That's a really good and relevant point.

A few years back, Mitsubishi began denying warranty claims for the EVO because people were AXing and taking them to track events. The car would blow up and the dealers would refuse to make the repairs based on "racing" the car. The owner and the car were then "black listed" in the database so that other dealerships would know. Often, mistakes were made.

Insurance and AX has been a topic of frequent discussion on these forums, not a single insurance company will honor a claim for racing. That's why AX and track events are billed as precision driving events and driving schools. Insurance companies will honor those claims.

At our local events, we are very quick to point out that people are not racing, do not use that term, do not pass go, do not collect $200. The reason being is that if a picture is posted and someone describes "Matt racing his Yugo", and it is seen by an insurance company that monitors web sites, then someone can get dropped really quickly.

Mitsubishi monitors web sites, it's not unreasonable to think that a large insurance carrier would as well. However, I have to differ to Carrera as this is his area of expertise.

Carrera - Your thoughts?
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:38 PM   #25
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IMO it seems everybody is putting way too much thought into this thing. Course design was acceptable, the possible experience of the driver was acceptable, therefore there wasn't any red flags before the accident. Basically if you miss the break pedal when you should be doing a firm stop, of course its not gonna end bad. Its not saftey steward nor drivers fault, things happen especially in an unfamilar car. No one is to blame because no one could have forseen this and then said, hey guys theres gonna be an accident soon, lets try and prevent it now
Tua-

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree to a certain extent.

It does warrant discussion and thought, because to your point, stuff happens.

A lot of us AX and attend track events and would like to continue to do so. Examples like the one I posted represents a possible threat to that enjoyment. Everything from insurance to warranties to participation. I want to emphasize again that this is a RARE occurence, but the knee jerk reaction is to blame the activity. I think we are all in agreement that to do that would be a mistake.

I go back to my original request. This was an SCCA event in the Northwest. If anyone on this forum was there and can provide additional detail, I would appreciate it as I wasn't there. So, a lot of questions are unanswered. We can all learn from it.

That said, regardless of the circumstance, some responsibility does lie with the safety steward. Be it an issue of course design or by allowing a novice or non-participant drive the course, he and his/her team needed to be vigillant.

I do agree with you that there are elements that are beyond control of even the steward which is why you take as many precautions as possible. The worst incidents that I've ever seen either resulted from driver error or in mechanical failure. The first of which was a car where the driver overshot a gate at speed, over corrected and went sideways over railroad tracks. Lots of damage to the car that resulted from driver error. The second was a tie rod broke on an MG and he went head first into a light pole squashing the car and the driver broke his nose on the steering wheel. To add insult to injury, the military police (this was at Cameron Station in Alexandria, VA) wrote him a ticket for hitting an imovable object. The third was also driver error where an IDIOT was doing a burnouts in the paddock area. Before the organizers could get there to throw him out, he managed to impale his brand new CLK 420 on a concrete abutment. Finally, a minor incident where another Benz (E55) over corrected and went over a curb 60 feet from the gate. In each instance (except the idiot) all were experienced drivers.

So, I accept that you can't account for all circumstances. Still, that's why we have insurance and move on. You have to accept that an incident is a possibility, but the safety steward MUST accept some responsibility. Otherwise, we don't need or shouldn't have them.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:39 PM   #26
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I say these things not to be argumentative, but rather to foster discussion.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:56 PM   #27
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Some people's only purpose in life is to server as a warning to others. This wasn't a porsche 911 handling issue - the car was straight and in control. He simply somehow wasn't able to stop while driving in a straight line.

I've never tried an autocross and probably won't in the future. Mainly due to a lot of standing around and only getting a few 40 second runs but this certainly doesn't help.

Also don't rely on the internet or word of mouth for information about being covered in a timed event in a parking lot, or a driver education on a big track. I would speak directly with your insurance agent. Even if they do cover your mistake, you most likely be dropped and end up paying a higher rate with another carrier.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:02 PM   #28
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Some people's only purpose in life is to server as a warning to others. This wasn't a porsche 911 handling issue - the car was straight and in control. He simply somehow wasn't able to stop while driving in a straight line.

I've never tried an autocross and probably won't in the future. Mainly due to a lot of standing around and only getting a few 40 second runs but this certainly doesn't help.

Also don't rely on the internet or word of mouth for information about being covered in a timed event in a parking lot, or a driver education on a big track. I would speak directly with your insurance agent. Even if they do cover your mistake, you most likely be dropped and end up paying a higher rate with another carrier.
Completely agree.

Unfortunately, mistakes do happen and people get dropped from insurance companies as a result after covering the claim.

Such is the risk we take.

However, "boots on the ground" do offer perspective when we try to learn the full story.
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Old 04-24-2007, 02:00 PM   #29
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That course... yeah... didn't sound all that smart. Then again... missing the brake? Eh... any real authority involved in analyzing what happened?
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:46 PM   #30
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ouch.....that blows..
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