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2 Shift or not 2 Shift

3K views 24 replies 14 participants last post by  focusedaddiction 
#1 ·
During my autocross runs last year I did runs where I stayed in 2nd gear and runs where I shifted back and fourth between 1st and 2nd and I found that staying in 2nd overall performed the best for me. While watching Carrera26's video from his Evo 1 school, I noticed the instructor said something about staying in 2nd also.
What is your prefered method?
 
#4 ·
I found that the more I autoX, the more I end up leaving it in 2nd....depending of course on how much speed I can hold through the turn. A tight Chicago Box ro something like that, I may drop to first to yank up out of it, but for the most part I think staying in 2nd is the way to go. Afterall, how much time do you end up staying in 1st vs. the time you wasted shifting to and from?
 
#5 ·
i leave it in 2nd at my auto-x location there isn't anything where i would have to really slow down a lot for and for the most part i stay above 3k rpms in 2nd the whole time. At the last event of the season they did a double lap (of an already huge lot) and i was redlining 2nd and had to shift to 3 halfway down the straight. [V]
 
#6 ·
I only came close to redline in 2nd on one event, the slalom was set up so I could go thru full throttle but the end came before I hit the limiter. I have been practicing left foot braking and think that will be the way to go, 2nd gear and left brake. They don't put many straights in here. [:(]
 
#7 ·
The fastest I've ever been on a course was around 50-55mph because they had a semi-long straight with a corner that I didn't have to lift on into the longest straight of the course.

When Jason and I were running the last event for OKC, we were debating as to stay in first for the beginning part of the course or go into second. Since he had his runs earlier in the day before I did, I got to watch him go through the course and hear the shifting. Needless to say, he was on average I believe half a second faster when he stayed in second.

At the last autocross I went to, you needed to go into first gear since the track was as follows:

There was a downhill slalom into a 180º hairpin (at the bottom of the paper) that brought you back uphill through the aforementioned slalom. Averaging only 10mph or so around the hairpin cone and then going uphill, it would be detrimental to your time not to go into first. You could see this most obviously with the automatic cars since they didn't want to go into first gear, and you would see people putting up the hill in second.

From what I've read, seen, and experienced, most of the time going down into first will cost you more time than it will save you. If you think about how long you're at wide-open throttle versus the time you could be spending braking, turning, and accelerating in second, you've gained the time you've lost in the slightly slower acceleration. I've had this debate in an ST vs. SVT thread about whether it would be faster to downshift into first or to stay in second gear when traveling around 30mph. Why would it be any different from an autocross than on the road?

I need to start left-foot braking.
 
#9 ·
I actually leave it in 1st most of the time, but I think that we usually have tighter and more technical courses than some of you folks.

The point the instructor was making in my video is pointing out how much time is lost to wheelspin. It's not like I wasn't being careful with the pedal either. It really did make it apparent how much I was losing even with moderate wheelspin...

I did eventually end up going faster in 1st gear, but I learned to be very careful, and it took driving around in 2nd gear most of the day to learn how to use and maintain momentum enough to stay quick while being VERY easy on the gas pedal. You learn a whole lot more about maintaining momentum when it's a lot harder to create it!

I would leave it in 2nd on the vast majority of courses, as it takes about .5 second to shift (time not spent accelerating), and most likely you will be shifting back just a few seconds later. Not to mention that it is unsettling to the car while cornering and opens up opportunity for rushed shifts that leave you sitting in neutral and screwing the whole run. I think you should only shift when it's a situation like Ilcowil's course, where you are coming fast into an extremely tight corner.
 
#10 ·
ilcowil did they provide that map for you? I have been hand drawing a map during my course walks in OKC but they were NEVER as detailed as that!
 
#11 ·
Yep, they had it posted up at the trailer. I'm not sure if they always do this, or if it was more for the use of explaining the course. The course that day was by far one of the most confusing courses I've ever driven. I got lost on the first run, and after talking with several people out there, I wasn't the only one having trouble. If you look at the unofficial results, you'd see there are a LOT of DNFs for the first runs on the course even by the regulars. However, they no longer have the site anymore due to pressure I believe from the regional director (?) over the safety of the site. There was an incident at each event (three for three), and the last incident was by far the scariest/worst.

If they can secure a site, you should come out to the NEOkla region to autocross. You'll definitely find out what a Cooper S is more capable of than how some of the OKC Coopers drive. Not that any of them are bad drivers, but Brock is just plain good. I think you'll beat the competition this season with your improvements and upgrades, Mike. Maybe you and Brock can give each other a run for the first place spot. [;)]

Wish I could still run with you in G-Stock...
 
#12 ·
The size and design of a course will for the most part determine your gear selection. For the average auto-x course, leaving the car in 2nd will do fine.

If you can keep your speed high enough in the tighter turns and stay in your powerband, then leave it in 2nd gear.
 
#13 ·
ilcowil said:
Maybe you and Brock can give each other a run for the first place spot.
Oh no, He ran in OKC early last year and SMOKED the course. I think he posted the top PAX time overall and in top 5 overall. No thanks, let him stay in NEOKLA and I will stay in OKC. [thumb]
 
#15 ·
^^ LMAO. They can get pretty interesting.


Our courses out here are a little easier to read, have some tight areas, but also open up to allow you to get on it here and there.

Here was one of our winter courses....this was 2nd gear in my SVTF for pretty much the whole course.

 
#16 ·
I'm still on the fence concerning 2nd gear.
The tighter courses I've run in Great Falls, Missoula, and Bozeman can be handled entirely in 1st gear,
and only peg the limiter on the last couple runs of the day when I've finally found the spots where I can keep a bit more momentum
Yes, the courses are that tight, but a bigger factor is how tall the SVTF 1st gear is.

However, Helena and to a lesser extent Malmstrom AFB are much more open.
In fact, I need 3rd gear quite often in Helena.
Where I really started playing around with the "2nd gear factor" I'll call it after talking with Carrera26 was at Malmstrom.
I finally found the benefits in keeping momentum as well as having much less wheel spin.
(Watching my vids at home and at the track has been a great help,
as I can hear right away when the inside front starts spinning)
I'm definitely going to work on this more for this season.
The first few times playing around with it, I was so absorbed in when and when not to shift, I wasn't concentrating on my line.
I will say this though...
In the last event of the season (Malmstrom again) when I played around with 2nd gear,
my times were only a couple 10ths off of my all out runs shifting more between 1st and 2nd and back again.
Hmmmm.
 
#18 ·
It's getting your foot re-trained to put the foot down farther and sooner while sticking in 2nd that's the hard part. 2 years of muscle memory from trying to limit spin in first gear was awfully hard to overcome. Get that licked and I think that there is tons of time to be found.

The fact that that advice came from a guy who won several Stock class National Championships with a torque-less 1.6L Civic makes me believe in it all the more.
 
#19 ·
I really enjoy reading all these threads about autoX because i would love to get into it this year and reading this stuff is telling me more and more of what i need to know.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I just received word from Brock on the SVTOA forums, and it looks like he won't be running at most if not all the events. Bummer, he'd give you a real run for your money.

Don't want to run with him? It'll give you a goal to shoot for. I think you have more than enough skill to take down Pat's Cooper S. If you're running that close to him on your street tires against his slicks and at the last OKC event, I was able to put down a time that none of them could match, I think you're going to find you may have gone overkill with the tires in being competitive in our region. Who knows?

Just think. I have to go up against Eric Denison! He's the fastest guy at our events on street tires. Second place might be very comfortable this year unless Jason comes out to a few and gives me a run for my money. Oh well, it's all for fun, right?
 
#21 ·
If you have the torque to pull it, I would leave it in gear, if the car is bogging then shift, Just one more opinion, shifting takes time..especially if you can get on the gas earlier in second, then its really worth it..
 
#22 ·
Carrera26 said:
2 years of muscle memory from trying to limit spin in first gear was awfully hard to overcome.
That's a great statement, and explains a lot.
I still drive like there's an egg under the gas pedal, and I don't want to break it (the egg, not the habit).
I found myself feathering the throttle in 2nd gear the same as I would have in 1st.
But, you're exactly right...you can mash the gas coming out of a turn in 2nd with some confidence.

Ahhhh! I wish the season would start. [?|]
 
#23 ·
^^^
Ahhhh! I wish the season would start.
^^^^

AMEN, couldn't have said it better!..... 2 months & some change...[;)]
love my azenis....a certain onramp by 10th av. reminds me of a nice sweeper out by you!!![}:)] [}:)] I wouldn't think of posting a speed.......7????????????..nobody around of coarse[thumb]
 
#24 ·
March 25th is our first Test 'N Tune. Usually ends up being about 25 of the hardcore guys, and we set up various induvidual things like a slalom, then sweepers, then a Chicago box, etc etc, then start running through them over and over. But this year I and others are bringing out digital recorders and laptops so everyone can see their runs right away and get dialed back in with a quickness. It usually means by the end of the day everyone is jumping in everyone elses car too, which is always fun!

Then we can be all kinds of fast for the first event on Sunday. Do that for our first 3 events...
 
#25 ·
that sounds like a great idea , we're doing somthing similar, sat. test& tune/ sun. points race.
I'm dying to take a non points run in my brothers STI for the hell of it[:D] he's been modding as much as me lately, ya can't run from the bug!
 
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