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-   -   Let's talk lift induced oversteer for a moment (http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303353)

TommyTooHi 11-29-2012 07:56 PM

Let's talk lift induced oversteer for a moment
 
It's known that Our Dear Focii do this, and I'd like to learn your driving habits/tips/tricks.

What are the best ways to 'work' it?

How do you keep the back from getting (too) loose, say slowing on a decreasing radius wet on-ramp, then maybe to brake hard-ish due to traffic?

Generally, I'm just looking for input from experienced SVT-ish drivers.
Thanks~


Some back story:
2004 SVT.
Bought 16" Focus wheels, some Firestone Winterforce tires, after replacing struts/shocks with 'stock' SVT bits. And fresh front sway end links and poly rear sway bushings.
Realized it was past due for an alignment... felt like 4 rubber crutches, and NOT very stable.
Mr. Fordahl set it up for me, and mentioned that the SVT's tend to oversteer a bunch due to the geometry. He's set up a bunch for local club racers. It feels a LOT better, but I can obviously still induce oversteer on that on-ramp~~!

Here;s where I'm at:
FT:
Total Toe: -0.01
Camber: -1.1 / -0.8

Rear:
Total Toe: 0.23
Camber: -0.9 / -1.6

Thanks,

-T_T

Geezer 11-29-2012 08:54 PM

Are your toe numbers in inches or degrees? My experience is that a basically stock SVT is very neutral and not "prone" to oversteer, it has to be induced. Stiffer rear springs or larger rear sway will make the rear looser. Any car will have a tendancy to oversteer if you brake while cornering. That's why you do braking before entering a corner. Tires are also an important part of the equation. I'm assuming you do not have aftermarket camber adjustment devises on the rear end of your car. If you do, they should have been able to get the rear camber more even side to side.

emsvitil 11-29-2012 08:58 PM

Rear toe doesn't look right.

Neptune15 11-29-2012 09:24 PM

I'm curious about this too, for track purposes.

I'm a track newbie and I find even just a dab of throttle through corners keeps things stable.

Can this oversteer be used to be quicker around a track? Say, chuck the car into the corner without throttle and power out of it? [:)]

felixthecat 11-29-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emsvitil (Post 4476593)
Rear toe doesn't look right.

Thats total toe= both sides. Seems good to me.

felixthecat 11-29-2012 10:24 PM

[QUOTE=TommyTooHi;4476497]It's known that Our Dear Focii do this, and I'd like to learn your driving habits/tips/tricks.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune15 (Post 4476638)
I'm curious about this too, for track purposes.

I'm a track newbie and I find even just a dab of throttle through corners keeps things stable.And it'll be more amified w/ a bigger rear bar.

Can this oversteer be used to be quicker around a track? Say, chuck the car into the corner without throttle and power out of it? [:)]

Stay in the throttle & use brakes to maintain momentum. The focus is a momentum car, like the mazda mx5. Have to learn to keep the speed up.
Try using your left foot on the brake= Just use a little pressure & feel weight tranfer do its job. Different driving technique, takes getting use to.

iminhell 11-29-2012 10:27 PM

Look into the 'anti-dive' mods Gold Coast (I think it was) did to the front bushings.

The problem comes from loading the front and the back coming up. Reduce the amount the front dives and the geometry stays more predictable. Or that's the theory.

Another option may be to give the rear more braking power. An adjustable proportioning valve or using larger ID front brake lines (which would reduce braking pressure). But both these must be very well understood before attempting any modifications.
The negative results could be VERY dangerous.

jinstall 11-29-2012 11:01 PM

Buy a rear adjustable rear swaybar, find a very large open paved surface with no obsticals, wait fo rit to rain and start from there. Lock in the SB to it's firmest setting and use some cheap soccer cones from a local sports store. Make yourself a constant radius open 180deg turn in said area. With medium speed, 30-40mph enter the curve and as the weight shifts forward when you stab on the brakes to slow, turn the wheel to follow the curve. Whith luck the rear will step out. Once it steps out, you keep working from there as you become comfortable with the car and it's caracteristics. Most people are right handed and find it easier to do turning right. make sure you train to do it both ways. As you learn to get the car to do what you want it to do, and become good at it, change the rear swaybar to a softer setting. This will allow you to go to the next level of speed, say 50-60mph. Onece you get that down, you can move on to higher speeds and softer settings. One thing to help induce this is to raise the rear tire pressure to about 2 lbs BELOW the tire pressures rated MAX COLD PRESSURE, this will allow the tires to loose grip, not get heat and easier release of grip. Remeber alwasy to this with someone else around, in case of an accident and alwasy in an area you have LEGALLY aquired to do so at. You might want ot try a local SCCA event, after runs have been completed for the day.

TommyTooHi 11-29-2012 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixthecat (Post 4476757)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyTooHi (Post 4476497)
It's known that Our Dear Focii do this, and I'd like to learn your driving habits/tips/tricks.

Stay in the throttle & use brakes to maintain momentum. The focus is a momentum car, like the mazda mx5. Have to learn to keep the speed up.
Try using your left foot on the brake= Just use a little pressure & feel weight transfer do its job. Different driving technique, takes getting use to.

Ah, beautiful response! Forgot all about that~~ I use it often, over the whoop-te-doops to keep the car planted, on the ground. Surprises those that follow... heh heh... I'll employ it from now on, thanks~~!~!~!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune15 (Post 4476638)
I'm curious about this too, for track purposes.

I'm a track newbie and I find even just a dab of throttle through corners keeps things stable.

Can this oversteer be used to be quicker around a track? Say, chuck the car into the corner without throttle and power out of it? [:)]

If you're into FWD drifting, maybe? See Felixthecat's response, that might be the ticket? I DO feel that as soon as the 'rotate' feeling comes, getting back on the throttle for a steady-state speed, it's gone. Same trick as on my aprilia hoon-cycle, steady state throttle is the stable/fast way around corners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geezer (Post 4476583)
Are your toe numbers in inches or degrees? My experience is that a basically stock SVT is very neutral and not "prone" to oversteer, it has to be induced. Stiffer rear springs or larger rear sway will make the rear looser. Any car will have a tendancy to oversteer if you brake while cornering. That's why you do braking before entering a corner. Tires are also an important part of the equation. I'm assuming you do not have aftermarket camber adjustment devises on the rear end of your car. If you do, they should have been able to get the rear camber more even side to side.

I was afraid someone was going to ask that... I pretty sure he said degrees. Must be, right?

Stock (orig) rear springs, new struts/springs/end links up front (Tousley Ford Racing kit, ya?) and new rear bushings, as I mentioned. Not as noticeable as before, but: rolling through the middle of the sweeper, rolling off the throttle with no other change to inputs and it wants to rotate. Some. Not snap, just feel it... starting to rotate. Feels pretty interesting, actually.

I THINK I will learn to benefit from it, once I get comfortable and learn the dynamics. Looking forward to snow, too!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixthecat (Post 4476738)
Thats total toe= both sides. Seems good to me.

Thanks. one opinion I read here was rear .04 in of toe-IN.

But, I totally trust Greg Fordahl at this point. I'll give him a call and see if I can take some of his time about why OUT instead of IN - his shop is FULL of race cars in various states of reconstruction. Then there's his 914-6 track car, BITCHIN! It's about 2' wider than stock, friggin serious mods!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by iminhell (Post 4476766)
Look into the 'anti-dive' mods Gold Coast (I think it was) did to the front bushings.

The problem comes from loading the front and the back coming up. Reduce the amount the front dives and the geometry stays more predictable. Or that's the theory.

Another option may be to give the rear more braking power. An adjustable proportioning valve or using larger ID front brake lines (which would reduce braking pressure). But both these must be very well understood before attempting any modifications.
The negative results could be VERY dangerous.

Wow, but WAY too serious!!! It's my daily driver/joy toy, but good info if I decide being anal is a GOOD thing.

-T_T

TommyTooHi 11-29-2012 11:14 PM

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
 
Answer:
"Practice, practice, practice!"
haha

Cool idea - should be able to do this without new parts - it's just leaning where/when/how much\little, etc etc.

wOOt! Lots of empty lots in SoDo (when there's not a ball game!) And rain is not a problem - Seattle, ya know? No waiting.

Thanks!

-T_T

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinstall (Post 4476847)
Buy a rear adjustable rear swaybar, find a very large open paved surface with no obsticals, wait fo rit to rain and start from there. Lock in the SB to it's firmest setting and use some cheap soccer cones from a local sports store. Make yourself a constant radius open 180deg turn in said area. With medium speed, 30-40mph enter the curve and as the weight shifts forward when you stab on the brakes to slow, turn the wheel to follow the curve. Whith luck the rear will step out. Once it steps out, you keep working from there as you become comfortable with the car and it's caracteristics. Most people are right handed and find it easier to do turning right. make sure you train to do it both ways. As you learn to get the car to do what you want it to do, and become good at it, change the rear swaybar to a softer setting. This will allow you to go to the next level of speed, say 50-60mph. Onece you get that down, you can move on to higher speeds and softer settings. One thing to help induce this is to raise the rear tire pressure to about 2 lbs BELOW the tire pressures rated MAX COLD PRESSURE, this will allow the tires to loose grip, not get heat and easier release of grip. Remeber alwasy to this with someone else around, in case of an accident and alwasy in an area you have LEGALLY aquired to do so at. You might want ot try a local SCCA event, after runs have been completed for the day.



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