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-   -   no harmonic dampener? (http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130222)

focusTNR29 08-02-2007 03:03 PM

no harmonic dampener?
 
i have read a ton of stuff on this site about how replacing the crank pulley could eventually mess up your engine because it takes off the harmonic dampener. well i was looking at the pulley system at massivespeedsystem.com and it seems that everyone on this site has been wrong about that.

an exact quote from the description " Zetec motors are INTERNALLY ZERO balanced, meaning the factory pulley IS NOT a harmonic dampener of any kind. This means swapping the crank pulley will have NO adverse effects on engine longevity, Massive's staff has logged literally over 250,000 collective miles with these pullies installed and have seen NO unsatisfactory qualities."

So what is the real truth. i think im going to have to go with massive on this one.(not saying that you guys dont know what your talking about, because i know you do and come to this site whenever i have questions)

SkaAddict 08-02-2007 03:08 PM

The engine being balanced internally has nothing to do with vibrations. And their having logged "250,000 collective miles" means nothing...they might have a point if they had logged that many miles on one car, but the harmonic vibrations that the stock crank pulley removes from the system may cause premature failure of the main crank bearings and other hard to replace internal parts if you remove the stock pulley. Its all a question of how much risk do you want to take by installing the part? Ford didn't include a dampner in the stock pulley for no reason...automakers don't install unnecessary parts on cars because even the tiniest of savings (less than a cent even) will add up when you're building millions of cars.

1turbofocus 08-02-2007 07:34 PM

Who ever stated "Zetec motors are INTERNALLY ZERO balanced, meaning the factory pulley IS NOT a harmonic dampener of any kind. "

Is a TOTAL MORON and does not need to be advising people about parts or how engines work

Where did you get that from ?

If you look closely at the Factory balancer it has a thin piece of rubber made in between the crank hub and the outer pulley this helps to fight "Harmonics" in and through the engine. If the Ford engineers felt that one wasent needed then they would of installed a solid "Crank Assy drive Pulley" much like the Lima 2.0 , 2.3 , 2.5 (Pinto) engines were

Now saying that , If you install a "solid assy drive pulley" it wont mean your going to have engine failure right away or ever for that matter. If your NA chances are you will never see any engine failure. If you want to take that chance its your engine its your decision

Tom

illinipo 08-02-2007 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1turbofocus (Post 1698198)

If you look closely at the Factory balancer it has a thin piece of rubber made in between the crank hub and the outer pulley this helps to fight "Harmonics" in and through the engine. If the Ford engineers felt that one wasent needed then they would of installed a solid "Crank Assy drive Pulley" much like the Lima 2.0 , 2.3 , 2.5 (Pinto) engines were

I have looked closely. And I have pointed that ring out to the Said Sayer of the phrase above, in person nonetheless. It was simply denounced with the "internally balanced" arguement. Well, I may ONLY be a junior in engineering at the famed University of Illinois, but I still know for sure that parts dont have strips of rubber in them for nothing. And I know for a fact that after a lot of miles, an engine is no longer internally balanced. This is called "wear". lol

There WILL be a resonance frequency (some RPM, will be different for all motors) at which the crankshaft WILL experience major vibration, no matter how well some computer supposedly balanced the motor.

For financial reasons (yes, I really am THAT poor, plus its 100 bucks for 1 hp!!!) and for crankshaft safekeeping, as of today I have jumped on the "dont get a udp" bandwagon. Hell, we can use my wagon as a bandwagon if you guys want.

Said Sayer of the phrase above, let's not let this get between us ok? "its your engine its your decision" leave it at that.

1turbofocus 08-03-2007 07:01 AM

"Internally Balanced" = All balancing is done with in the (rotating Assy) crank rods and piston

"Externally Balanced"= Some balancing of the rotating Assy is done with counter weights in either or the Fly wheel or Balancer

If the engine is internal or external " balanced " has NOTHING to do with removing the only devise there is to help controle harmonics

Even if (and it isnt) the Zetec was externallly balanced and you removed it and replaced it with a solid (rubber removed) externally balancer you would still be removing the only way the engine has to controle harmonics

Were talking Harmonics here not the balance of the engine, Harmonics is VERY deadly to an engine and if Ford Enginers felt it was needed to go after groceries what do you think happens when you mod it and create higher RPM , Load... exactly you create more Harmonics

Its called a "harmonic balancer" to balance the engines harmonics NOT the engines rotating Assy

Again where did you get this info?

Tom

1turbofocus 08-03-2007 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illinipo (Post 1698339)
And I know for a fact that after a lot of miles, an engine is no longer internally balanced. This is called "wear". lol

regular every day ware wont change the balance of the engine internal or external balance

Tom

illinipo 08-03-2007 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1turbofocus (Post 1698865)
regular every day ware wont change the balance of the engine internal or external balance

Tom

Why is that? Basically the way I see it, what happens is you slowly wear away material, so the distribution of mass changes and therefore the pieces (particularly the crank at the bearing locations) arent balanced anymore. Please enlighten me about how changing the distribution of mass doesnt change the harmonics of a rotating assembly, that's a direct calculation right there.

And we all know that a lot of us dont put just everyday wear on the motor, many of us (especially the ones who get a udp) like to get on it a lot.

PS, thanks for getting technical, it's nice to have a worthy conversation around here that isnt based solely on opinion for once.

K Dog 08-03-2007 09:20 AM

Well, I suppose hearing it from a Ford designer that helped develop the Zeta engine way back when tips me off as to the nature of the balance.

The stock pulley is NOT A DAMPNER. ITs a BIG chunk of iron that would other wise ADD undesirable harmonics to the motor if is was not

a. balanced
b. bushed with rubber

So the strip of rubber is there as to not harm the engine or add vibrations. Something that is NOT a factor when running a well made pulley that is of essentially inconsequential weight.

If Im SUCH A MORON then I guess everyone at Ford Racing, Esslinger, FocusSport, Mac and Focus Central are as well... I guess im in good company.

illinipo 08-03-2007 10:23 AM

Geez it's just a piece of your motor, let's try not to get emotional here...just trying to mix science with experience, ya know like bounce ideas off each other to see what we come up with. Hopefully someday one of these udp threads will get to the bottom of things without getting locked or deleted...

That said, it does make sense the the rubber strip could be designed in to dampen the unbalanced pulley itself. So this could be the simple solution.

Has anyone put a pulley on ONE car with over 150,000 miles yet? I am most certainly not willing to be a guinea pig. However, I think the results of this would help the dispute.

illinipo 08-03-2007 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K Dog (Post 1698998)
Well, I suppose hearing it from a Ford designer that helped develop the Zeta engine way back

Whoops, I missed this the first time reading it. Duly noted. But has Ford made any changes between the Zeta and Zetec-E? Cut any corners like they are well known to do?


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