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Thread: ARP main stud to lower crankcase clarence issues... and how i solved it Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-04-2013 01:23 PM
200two-zx3
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
Cutting the studs like he says hurts nothing, if it did I would have blown up plenty of engines. I simply cut them on cutting wheel on bench grinder and keep dipping part in water to control the temp. Little bites like he says, I bet I've done it on thousands of parts. Now if you simply cut or grind on grinder until part turns blue, oh, yeah, you have screwed up. How do you think they are going to balance your high dollar super trick hardened-six-ways-from-sundown connecting rods? By grinding them on a grinder in exact same way. You have to cross a certain threshold of temperature (generally close to the same temp that created the heat treat) to affect the heat treat of a part, anything below that is harmless, and all within the skill and control of the operator.

There is no vibration issue on cutting the girdle webs, it is a strength issue, the cross webs stiffen the girdle up, notched that deep it is a bit weaker is all.
Thanks for the back up
Also the vibration issue we were talking about is how sound goes threw aluminum by removing material you change the frequency and in part you can cause weak points however this isn't a racing engine being reved to 16000 rpm either so we have nothing to remotely worry about
02-04-2013 01:58 AM
amc49 Cutting the studs like he says hurts nothing, if it did I would have blown up plenty of engines. I simply cut them on cutting wheel on bench grinder and keep dipping part in water to control the temp. Little bites like he says, I bet I've done it on thousands of parts. Now if you simply cut or grind on grinder until part turns blue, oh, yeah, you have screwed up. How do you think they are going to balance your high dollar super trick hardened-six-ways-from-sundown connecting rods? By grinding them on a grinder in exact same way. You have to cross a certain threshold of temperature (generally close to the same temp that created the heat treat) to affect the heat treat of a part, anything below that is harmless, and all within the skill and control of the operator.

There is no vibration issue on cutting the girdle webs, it is a strength issue, the cross webs stiffen the girdle up, notched that deep it is a bit weaker is all.
02-03-2013 04:17 PM
200two-zx3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus2727 View Post
Ford also does what is cheapest, could have just been cheaper on the cast mold to have it built that way. It would be interesting to see what kind of harmonic change or strength changes are made to the windage tray.

Using the theory about changing the vibrations of the motor any aftermarket part would cause that... from a TB that changes the air flow, to forged pistons and rods, to different cam shafts that have more or bless rotating mass.

It would be interesting to see if your method of cold cutting does change the integrity of a heat treated bolt/stud.
It is not supposed to change anything its a trusted way of trimming bolts on aircraft if it were dangerous then I doubt the faa would allow it, as far as the vibrations thing that's why I said bla bla bla lol its a bunch of nonsense lol.
02-03-2013 01:36 PM
Magus2727 Ford also does what is cheapest, could have just been cheaper on the cast mold to have it built that way. It would be interesting to see what kind of harmonic change or strength changes are made to the windage tray.

Using the theory about changing the vibrations of the motor any aftermarket part would cause that... from a TB that changes the air flow, to forged pistons and rods, to different cam shafts that have more or bless rotating mass.

It would be interesting to see if your method of cold cutting does change the integrity of a heat treated bolt/stud.
02-03-2013 01:28 PM
200two-zx3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus2727 View Post
All good points. My concern on the cutting is that the heat treating allows for the molecular structure of the bolt after being cut and have threads cut in to relax to a stronger state. If you cut it with out re heat treating you are possibly allowing for a weaker stud. Not that this should matter for most of us.

You say cold, did you use a press to shear it off? And grinding will heat up small isolated areas that will un-uniformly heat that area of the stud.

What strength reasons are there in the windage tray? Nothing bolts to it, does it add rigidity to the block? My understanding the of ribs was to create some division between the rotating lobes of the crank to prevent the oil cloud from causing excess drag.
A friend of mine (works in ford performance division) says that by notching the tray you can cause some upset with the natural vibrations. That flow threw the engine, and that by removing some of the support from the tray we would weakin the overall integrity of the design... bla bla bla basicly ford wouldn't have had it there if it wasn't needed. By cold cutting I mean what techs in the aerospace/aircraft industry do you put the stud in a heat sink and keep it room temp or below during the cutting process by taking very small bites.
The temp of the cut never comes close to damaging the stud.
02-03-2013 12:55 PM
Magus2727 All good points. My concern on the cutting is that the heat treating allows for the molecular structure of the bolt after being cut and have threads cut in to relax to a stronger state. If you cut it with out re heat treating you are possibly allowing for a weaker stud. Not that this should matter for most of us.

You say cold, did you use a press to shear it off? And grinding will heat up small isolated areas that will un-uniformly heat that area of the stud.

What strength reasons are there in the windage tray? Nothing bolts to it, does it add rigidity to the block? My understanding the of ribs was to create some division between the rotating lobes of the crank to prevent the oil cloud from causing excess drag.
02-03-2013 12:31 PM
200two-zx3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus2727 View Post
I would be worried about cutting the studs... the little bit of extra metal to cut off the windage tray is not going to significantly change the strength. If you are worried dont do a square cut out, arch it out so their are no points.

I would not cut the studs, the studs get heat treated to make them stronger. The heat treating to my understanding allows for the molecular structure to "realign" after the cutting and threads. Cutting stud removes this "advantage" and can cause stress points internal to the stud. Ask ARP and I bet they will most defiantly recommend against any cutting or trimming of the stud.
You would have to raise the temp to over 800 degrees to even begin to mess with the heat treating I used a cold cuting method, if you were woried about heat effecting the stud then you def shouldn't use them in a engine where temps range from 200 to 600 degrees. I work along side of a racing developement group and they told me that by simply cutting the excess threads off you won't create even close to enough heat to mess with the heat treatment.

Also u say ask arp if they recommend cutting there stud~ I'm positive they would say No jut to cover there a**
Try asking ford if we should notch the bottom crankcase supports, they would def advise against it yet it has worked for many many people.

Great input on the subject though we def need to think of all sides of the issues before reccomending people do things
Thanks
02-02-2013 01:04 PM
Magus2727 I would be worried about cutting the studs... the little bit of extra metal to cut off the windage tray is not going to significantly change the strength. If you are worried dont do a square cut out, arch it out so their are no points.

I would not cut the studs, the studs get heat treated to make them stronger. The heat treating to my understanding allows for the molecular structure to "realign" after the cutting and threads. Cutting stud removes this "advantage" and can cause stress points internal to the stud. Ask ARP and I bet they will most defiantly recommend against any cutting or trimming of the stud.
02-02-2013 07:00 AM
Mile30 Huzzah on the "how-to"!
02-02-2013 04:22 AM
amc49 Excellent. I'd be cutting studs too to keep from having to make the cutouts in girdle too deep, that makes it a bit stronger.
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