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Thread: Problem with flushing the brake system 03 Focus ZX5 Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-31-2012 05:46 PM
amc49 I was diplomatic, I said SOME of the INFORMATION was nuts, not people. Sorry you were crossed and not the intention. My 'Nope' was actually incorrect, I suppose there will always be a way to screw up everything. You have to remove the cap once in a while..............

I'd sure like to know the difference between even and uneven bubbles though..........especially when all the training on the planet says to not stop bleeding until all the air is GONE. Excuses (from toolmaker, not you) made for a nonstarter tool (in that use of course) in my view, I certainly had to take them back at the store after selling them and purchaser griped they didn't work. I quit pushing them for bleeding as every one I sold came back with complaints. Seems to me the instructions in paperwork are at war with the world. I myself know the difference in the bubbles and even/uneven doesn't enter the picture there since you will ALWAYS have an air stream if bleeder screw threads leaking. The bubbles will be more like extremely fine rather than visible big air pockets. You can stop that clouding the issue by sealing up the threads on bleeder with teflon tape. Even though that works, I never use Mityvac. Too flaky. Maybe all the people returning them for same reason have clouded my brain.

You killed m/c because you one man bled too long without momentary cap relief, the diaphragm inside makes up for fluid loss but only has so much volume. Usually bleeding has cap pulled repeatedly enough checking if more fluid needed to vent what has become suction airspace, if not the diaphragm will pull in more and more until it ruptures or by some chance a seal edge on piston rolls backwards on itself from suction, which IS possible. Yes, liquids do not compress..........
12-31-2012 06:04 AM
whynotthinkwhynot
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
They pass way too much air right at your fitting through the threads, you will seem to get air forever and it will not go away
That is covered in the directions. Even bubbles are ok, uneven bubbles are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot
'Brake fluid does not compress. So if you put the cap back on, then you have someone open up a bleeder, push fluid out, tighten the bleeder, and then let up on the pedal, things can break.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
Nope...........
Perhaps that is a difference between one man and two man bleeding. I KOed a master cylinder with a one-man kit years ago because I put the cap back on. I can count the number of times I bled with a helper on one hand. That's why I recommend the Miti-Vac, and suggest that people read the directions which explain what happens when you use the supplied hard plastic nipples. I don't always use their plastic nipples. As much as I can, I force the clear hose over the brake nipple so there is nowhere for the vacuum action to draw air into the bleeder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
If person inside car cannot be relied on to follow direction 100% (not 98 or 99%) correctly, then you cannot do the bleeding right. Exact communication there is essential.
And that's why I can count the number of times I've done it with a partner on one hand. The $5 one man bleeder kit is ok. I've gone through several of those, but you're just as well off with punching a hole in the top of an empty container of brake fluid then running a hose into that.

Calling people nuts doesn't make you look smarter. You do what you do, and I'll do what I do.
12-31-2012 03:25 AM
sleepyboy I have to agree with AMC, I've bleed with the cap on and off before and never had a problem with that. This is the first time I ever heard that something could break.
12-31-2012 03:14 AM
amc49 Some of the info given here is nuts.

If you can tell the pedal is softer than it was before the work then you have air in lines plain and simple.

Mityvacs absolutely suck for brake bleeding, I don't care what the product says. I have two and have done it with them. They pass way too much air right at your fitting through the threads, you will seem to get air forever and it will not go away.

If you DO have ABS, then as long as ABS never activated during the low pedal problem (it shouldn't even be possible) then the ABS system is transparent to the lines, they are not affected, at least on any I ever worked on. Meaning you bleed like on a normal non-ABS car.

'Brake fluid does not compress. So if you put the cap back on, then you have someone open up a bleeder, push fluid out, tighten the bleeder, and then let up on the pedal, things can break.'

Nope...........

When you let up on pedal the m/c simply draws more fluid from the reservoir. Like the system does all year long in use when brake pads wear. I've been bleeding with cap firmly on for 45 years with not one mishap.

When doing the two man manual bleed if you open the bleeder quickly and all at once, the force of brake fluid spurting out can pull air in at end of squirt so fast you can't see it. The positive pressure pulls negative behind it just as in all pressure pulse phenomena. Better to slowly crack fitting and try to get it closed just before pedal stroke ends, meaning no more than a one inch jet of fluid. Half would be better. If person inside car cannot be relied on to follow direction 100% (not 98 or 99%) correctly, then you cannot do the bleeding right. Exact communication there is essential.
12-30-2012 06:31 PM
marsdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot View Post
Brake fluid does not compress. So if you put the cap back on, then you have someone open up a bleeder, push fluid out, tighten the bleeder, and then let up on the pedal, things can break. AFAIK, there is not a design that overcomes this basic principle, but you might get lucky and it's just air in the system. A vacuum bleeder will set you straight. If you can get a hard pedal again- then you're ok. If not then you need to replace the master cylinder and be sure to follow the bench bleeding process, then vacuum bleed again.
Thanks. Will try the vacuum bleeder. "Mity Vac MV8020 Brake Bleeding Kit" is what you referred to, right?

I drove 30+ miles with the soft pedal this afternoon and it was not that bad. Any other sign I can tell if the master cylinder is broken, e.g. fluid leak after driving?
12-30-2012 06:24 PM
whynotthinkwhynot
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsdog View Post
You mean leave the master cylinder reservoir open during bleeding? No, I did put the cap back (to avoid squirting fluid, I read somewhere) but disconnected the cable goes into the cap (not sure what that is for). How did this hurt the master cylinder?
Brake fluid does not compress. So if you put the cap back on, then you have someone open up a bleeder, push fluid out, tighten the bleeder, and then let up on the pedal, things can break. AFAIK, there is not a design that overcomes this basic principle, but you might get lucky and it's just air in the system. A vacuum bleeder will set you straight. If you can get a hard pedal again- then you're ok. If not then you need to replace the master cylinder and be sure to follow the bench bleeding process, then vacuum bleed again.
12-30-2012 06:14 PM
marsdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot View Post
Eh, you don't need buddies. That process is slower, and more prone to issues afterwards. Get you a Miti-Vac brake bleeder kit for about $25. Some stores might let you rent it. This is a vacuum bleeder. Read the directions. Go bleed your brakes. You'll be done in less than an hour by yourself. Most of that time will be getting proper access to the bleeder nipple.

Now you did have the cap off the master cylinder when you were bleeding- right? If not, you will need a new master cylinder.
You mean leave the master cylinder reservoir open during bleeding? No, I did put the cap back (to avoid squirting fluid, I read somewhere) but disconnected the cable goes into the cap (not sure what that is for). How did this hurt the master cylinder?
12-30-2012 06:05 PM
marsdog There was once the fluid level in master cylinder reservoir lower than MIN. s
Maybe this caused the problem?

I don't have ABS so the old school way should work fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ello View Post
How likely is it that you sucked a little air into the system by letting the fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir get too low?

If you have anti-lock brakes, you are supposed to disconnect the battery first. Not sure why or if it matters at all, I have never disconnected the battery to bleed the brakes on anything.
12-30-2012 04:32 PM
coldbear
Need a power bleed.

If you were bleeding brakes and now you have a soft pedal, you need to POWER BLEED that system. Since the introduction of ABS brakes, this system requires another bleeding process.( Power). You've probably got a small air pocket in your lines causing problems. Good luck, keep us informed how it came out.?
12-30-2012 04:31 PM
whynotthinkwhynot Eh, you don't need buddies. That process is slower, and more prone to issues afterwards. Get you a Miti-Vac brake bleeder kit for about $25. Some stores might let you rent it. This is a vacuum bleeder. Read the directions. Go bleed your brakes. You'll be done in less than an hour by yourself. Most of that time will be getting proper access to the bleeder nipple.

Now you did have the cap off the master cylinder when you were bleeding- right? If not, you will need a new master cylinder.
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