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Thread: Rear end wander on icy roads Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-24-2012 07:26 PM
elsolo
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Sounds about right for the camber bolt (would be silly expensive for a "shim").

When people use generic descriptions that don't really apply, you begin to wonder what they actually are doing - or what kind of wool they're trying to pull over someones eyes....

I've heard it explained that "people won't understand the real description anyways" as a reason for such verbiage - seems like a poor excuse for not attempting a proper explanation...

Looks like you got fixed up in any case!

There are rear camber shims available for the focus, they are tapered and the kit retails at $70
Customer probably only got part of the box of shims, but there is the install too. Half box of shims plus an extra half hour labor. $70 is not too bad.
11-24-2012 12:58 AM
amc49 thenorm, you stated

'i dont believe that a very slight toe out will cause the wobble.'

You should drive a double positrac four wheel drive with toe out and see just how creepy toe out under power is on front end, the vehicle constantly darts one way and then the other with no warning. One of the most unstable setups there is, terrifying to drive. The tires try to pull car in two different directions.

With toe out the tires will constantly be fighting each other to go opposite ways, you may not see it on dry pavement but that's exactly the type of scrub and slip that could easily untrack car on very substandard conditions like ice. Both toe in and toe out scrub tires but toe in scrubs and both sides pretty much slip evenly as they are scrubbing. Reason why is that both tires are trying to come together, if suspension tight the slip is gradual and evened out, the tires can only drive against each other so far before they HAVE to slip and keep on doing it. Toe out more like one tire scrubs a bit then slips when other tire yanks it back. An alternating slip-slip-slip as the two tires fight with each other. May not be dead even one for one trade either. They trade slip because tires are moving away from each other and at some arbitrary point one gives in to the other. The car weight trying to yank tire back straight in line (think of a trailer) adds to it too. The scrub/slip at same time does much less to untrack car in ice than the alternate scrub and slip. Slip in second case is worse because it accumulates before relief rather than being dissipated gradually.

Basic difference..........toe in, tires can both be out of dead straight but their combined motion can still result in dead straight tracking, toe out cannot do that, one tire goes one way and the other one goes its separate way, no way to make them work together. The skittishness from that makes hell on ice, or rain for that matter. You won't see slight amount affects unless you lose control of car too easily, that's it showing up.

Ford's reason for more weight increasing toe..................designed in for safety.

By 'scrub' I mean rubber rolling not dead straight, the friction is at an angle and not in line with tire sides. It produces the feathering on tread blocks.

By 'slip' I mean any giving of tread to neutralize distorting forces, the tire could actually slip on road surface (in water or on ice) or tread blocks can squirm to relieve that scrub force. Yes, a very small amount occurs on dead straight normal tires. A small amount allows tread to fit into road irregularities for better traction but more can be bad. It kills tire life past a certain point.
11-23-2012 11:34 PM
thenorm the camber bolts cost about $30. 70 installed would be reasonable.

front alignment looks good.
keep and eye on rear tire wear still. the rear toe could be reduced further to 0.1.
11-23-2012 11:32 PM
sailor Sounds about right for the camber bolt (would be silly expensive for a "shim").

When people use generic descriptions that don't really apply, you begin to wonder what they actually are doing - or what kind of wool they're trying to pull over someones eyes....

I've heard it explained that "people won't understand the real description anyways" as a reason for such verbiage - seems like a poor excuse for not attempting a proper explanation...

Looks like you got fixed up in any case!
11-23-2012 10:10 PM
berndt He called it a shim. I suppose I could look and see what that part looks 'new'. He charged me, like $70 for the part. Sound about right for a shop cost + markup? I plan on keeping that sheet he gave me, and going back in a few months, maybe when winter is over, and getting it checked again, and make sure its not going out of spec over time...
11-23-2012 08:50 PM
sailor Hmmm...

I'm seeing a MAJOR adjustment (needed) to front toe, as well as a change in L.R. camber.

The ODD thing, is that there isn't a "shim" to adjust camber on the Focus (it COULD be done, but it would be quite difficult) The normal way to make such an adjustment would be with a "camber bolt", which replaces an upper control arm bolt and can be twisted for some adjustment, then tightened in place.
11-23-2012 07:49 PM
berndt Here's the finished deal. A shim was added to the rear left, apparently..
11-23-2012 03:53 PM
sailor thenorm - honestly, the "wiggle" in my experience came from toe-in - so minimizing that should help. (Winter driving specific info., summer or performance driving preferences could vary)
11-23-2012 03:38 PM
thenorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc49 View Post
You realize of course if you set rear at dead zero static then it will be slightly toe out when car moving from rubber bushing and other part deflection right? A slight toe out like that could easily make the car do what OP complained of. I'd be looking for ever so slight toe in that would neutral out to zero while moving. Even a bit of toe in there acceptable, it makes the rear stay better on a set line.
true, but put even a bag of groceries in the trunk and the compression of the springs will cause toe in. also many people keep stuff in there trunk permanently. i know i've got some boots, a shovel, windsheild fluid and some oil.

i dont believe that a very slight toe out will cause the wobble. I also want to avoid much static toe in, as putting alot in your trunk (or compressing hte springs coing around a corner) will cause a lot of toe in which IMO is worse.

anyways i think we can all agree that minimal toe in in the rear is called for (between 0 and v.slight)
11-23-2012 12:17 AM
amc49 The thinking is still stuck in the past of RWD cars which did it easier. The logic doesn't have to make sense to a lawyer, it just has to work.
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