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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-02-2013 08:03 PM
Focuslu86
Quote:
Originally Posted by whynotthinkwhynot View Post
In order for you to test the engine cooling fans using the AC- the AC must be working. That's all the AC, not just the blower inside, but the compressor must be turning also. If you have low refrigerant in the AC system, then the compressor won't turn, and the engine cooling fans won't come on.

The engine cooling fans won't come on due to engine temps until your engine temps are much higher than you would think. That's why we suggest the AC method to test the fans. You can use the electronic odometer trick to monitor the temps that the temp sensor is reporting to the ECU, and the fans should come on at 115C. All temps reported in there are in C. High speed fans come on at like 118C. There's not much of a spread.

Likewise, if the engine cooling fan doesn't come on, and the blower fan in the cabin doesn't come on, then the AC won't come on- if that AC light isn't lit up, then that control circuit isn't complete. You can still test the engine cooling fans with the AC on normal and the blower on 2 or whatever fan speed works. As Sailor wrote, if the cabin air blower doesn't work on any speed except 4, then the fix is typically the blower resistor. If the blower doesn't work on any speed, then you should test the fan motor using a simple continuity test, or test for resistance between the pins. If you get resistance, the motor probably works, so replace the switch. I'm not going to get into how to test the switch. 99% of the time, in the situation I mentioned above with no blower speeds working, the culprit is the blower motor itself. If the blower works on some speeds but not others, like in your case it works on 1, 2, but not 3, or 4, then the culprit is the switch itself.

Now, back to your engine cooling fan problem- right? Isn't that what we're supposed to be fixing? You have another thread about pressure testing your cooling system for a leak. You also mentioned a clicking relay under the dash. This relay has been identified before in low voltage situations. Can you use that electronic odometer trick to tell us what your voltage is with the engine off, and then with the engine running, and then with the engine running and the lights on high beam. That might help with some diagnosis. Your whole problem might be a weak battery connection, bad battery, or bad alternator.

Now, once that is done, I can tell you how to force the fans to come on another way, and somewhere in here there is a method of bridging the low speed and high speed circuits so that your fan runs on high speed when it should be on low speed. All that does it make the engine cool off quicker- maybe lose a tiny bit of fuel economy- that's it. Here we get into "I'm not there" like was mentioned by others before. I have to go look up the thread because I don't know the exact wire colors to tell you. If I was there, I could figure it out by looking. I also don't know the exact relays to tell you to go to- if I was there, the information is in your owner's manual.

Anyway, try the stuff I mentioned. Make sure that AC light is on before you check the engine cooling fans. It is entirely possible that you need new fans, however, the problem is typically in the plug-in connector, engine cooling fan resistor, wiring, or something else. You'll want to be thorough because cooling fans cost like $200, but a diode would cost like $5 or less.

About the AC not working on 4, this means that the dual pressure switch is not working?
02-02-2013 07:58 PM
Focuslu86 thanks everybody for the messages! so finally my fans work...I cleaned the head temperature sensor that was filled with oil with some electrical cleaner from CRC. I put it back in then i plugged my scan tool. I checked for the temperature to go to 225 F to see if my fans would blow, and sure it did! the fans kicked in and the temperature on the scan tool started to drop...I do believe that the head cylinder temperature was throwing bad signals to the fans....could that be a possibility?
02-02-2013 06:39 PM
Blue5ive Will be interested to see the final outcome of this.
02-02-2013 06:16 PM
whynotthinkwhynot OH, if you can't hear the compressor click on, then go look at the face of the compressor. If the face of the pulley is still, then the compressor is not turning. If the compressor is turning, then the face of the compressor pulley will be turning with everything else.
02-02-2013 06:15 PM
whynotthinkwhynot In order for you to test the engine cooling fans using the AC- the AC must be working. That's all the AC, not just the blower inside, but the compressor must be turning also. If you have low refrigerant in the AC system, then the compressor won't turn, and the engine cooling fans won't come on.

The engine cooling fans won't come on due to engine temps until your engine temps are much higher than you would think. That's why we suggest the AC method to test the fans. You can use the electronic odometer trick to monitor the temps that the temp sensor is reporting to the ECU, and the fans should come on at 115C. All temps reported in there are in C. High speed fans come on at like 118C. There's not much of a spread.

Likewise, if the engine cooling fan doesn't come on, and the blower fan in the cabin doesn't come on, then the AC won't come on- if that AC light isn't lit up, then that control circuit isn't complete. You can still test the engine cooling fans with the AC on normal and the blower on 2 or whatever fan speed works. As Sailor wrote, if the cabin air blower doesn't work on any speed except 4, then the fix is typically the blower resistor. If the blower doesn't work on any speed, then you should test the fan motor using a simple continuity test, or test for resistance between the pins. If you get resistance, the motor probably works, so replace the switch. I'm not going to get into how to test the switch. 99% of the time, in the situation I mentioned above with no blower speeds working, the culprit is the blower motor itself. If the blower works on some speeds but not others, like in your case it works on 1, 2, but not 3, or 4, then the culprit is the switch itself.

Now, back to your engine cooling fan problem- right? Isn't that what we're supposed to be fixing? You have another thread about pressure testing your cooling system for a leak. You also mentioned a clicking relay under the dash. This relay has been identified before in low voltage situations. Can you use that electronic odometer trick to tell us what your voltage is with the engine off, and then with the engine running, and then with the engine running and the lights on high beam. That might help with some diagnosis. Your whole problem might be a weak battery connection, bad battery, or bad alternator.

Now, once that is done, I can tell you how to force the fans to come on another way, and somewhere in here there is a method of bridging the low speed and high speed circuits so that your fan runs on high speed when it should be on low speed. All that does it make the engine cool off quicker- maybe lose a tiny bit of fuel economy- that's it. Here we get into "I'm not there" like was mentioned by others before. I have to go look up the thread because I don't know the exact wire colors to tell you. If I was there, I could figure it out by looking. I also don't know the exact relays to tell you to go to- if I was there, the information is in your owner's manual.

Anyway, try the stuff I mentioned. Make sure that AC light is on before you check the engine cooling fans. It is entirely possible that you need new fans, however, the problem is typically in the plug-in connector, engine cooling fan resistor, wiring, or something else. You'll want to be thorough because cooling fans cost like $200, but a diode would cost like $5 or less.
02-02-2013 02:58 PM
tmittelstaedt I guess it's time for this old joke, my apologies to those who have seen it before:

A guy's commercial freezer full of meat stops running. In a panic he calls a repair guy.

The repair guy shows up, overalls, cap, chewing on a grass blade, covered with dirt and grease and looking like he just walked off the farm. He looks at the freezer for a minute, unplugs it, pulls an access panel off the side, replaces a fuse, puts the panel back on, and plugs it back in and the freezer starts up.

he then hands the guy a bill for $202.00

The owner looks at the bill and goes ballistic. He yells at the repair guy

"Dammit you were only here for 5 minutes! And $202, what the hell is the $2 for?!?!"

The repair guys says:

"It's $2.00 for the fuse. It's $200.00 for knowing what fuse to replace!!"
02-02-2013 02:38 PM
Lscman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focuslu86 View Post
So when i pay them, i have to close my eyes and give them my wallet hahahah! .........
Properly trained factory technicans are not cheap by the hour, but they are way cheaper for time and material work related to engine electrical controls. A factory tech will focus troubleshooting on the bad parts based upon vast experience with cars just like yours and replace only the defective part, charging you full list of course. The time to repair and parts cost will be minimized, so your bill will be low as possible.

An Indy with generic experience will hunt and peck around at half the hourly rate. They will either learn how to troubleshoot the system on your dime or they will replace a bunch of good parts after guessing, charging you labor for each. Then they will brag how they found so much bad stuff and say they gave you a parts discount.

The Indy job works OK for certain mechanical and body work, but seldom on electrical systems. You will be charged for trial and error plus time they spend learning about your car.
01-30-2013 06:41 AM
tmittelstaedt I fix computer networks for a living and only do car repairs as a hobby - I must echo what others are saying - unless you have a couple weeks you can park this vehicle that you can learn electrical troubleshooting on, and following a wiring diagram - your asking for trouble.

If you simply don't have the money at all then go to a wrecker and cut the fan plug off an existing fan harness, unplug the fans on your car, plug in the wrecking fan plug and wire it directly to the battery with a switch, you can run the wires into the passenger compartment for the switch. then manually turn the fan on when you start the car and turn it off when you stop. Hopefully your diagram will show + and - on the fan.

It will probably reduce your gas mileage with the parasitic drain but it will keep the car engine from melting down while you screw around with it.

You need more than the wiring diagram you also need the diagrams that say where the wires are located in the engine compartment and what harnesses they are run inside of. Hopefully your wiring diagram you bought includes that.

I am very familiar with troubleshooting automotive wiring from a tech manual and going in cold this would be at least a 2-3 hour job for me if it wasn't the fan resistor (which of course I would check first). If I was a mechanic doing these all day long in a dealership it would be a 20 minute job because I would know exactly where all the failure points are. And yes I know that if it does take the mechanic 20 minutes to find it your still going to be charged book time of an hour or two or whatever it is - that is how service departments make money - it may seem unfair - but they do have to warranty their work and it is not uncommon for electrical problem fixes like this to fail again.

Most of the time when I've done these things if it's not an easy fix (like the resistor) I end up starting off by following all wiring carefully - about half the time the wiring is chafed, or melted on a header or some such, and even if you know a particular circuit segment is dead by testing with a multimeter, it still takes ages to find the physical wire and follow it through from the diagram.
01-29-2013 08:05 AM
Focuslu86 So when i pay them, i have to close my eyes and give them my wallet hahahah! i will find the source using the ect2000 and the master probe 3... Has anybody used those tools before?
01-29-2013 07:27 AM
Lscman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Focuslu86 View Post
Well, I am taking my car to the shop on friday, but not to the dealership since they are going to charge me an overpriced amount to fix that...I have already bought a wiring diagram for my ford focus 2 days ago, so it should be on its way! can any repair shop can diagnose what's the problem? or it has to be a specific ford dealership to fix that?
Ford techs have seen the same problems hundreds of times, so they can fix this stuff with eyes shut. Independent will be working cold without as much expereicne on that model, so it takes much longer with spotty results. I would not use indy for such electrical work. they are better used for mechanical work or stuff that can be diagnosed thru code readers. The electrical troubleshooting procedures are in the service manual, not the wiring diagram book.
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