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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-22-2009 02:42 PM
kimbo305
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadIdea View Post
No, the point is just show up to the track with a helmet and fresh brake fluid. Heel/toe is not required.
Indeed. Either a beginner will be too timid to get near the limits of the car, or he'll be so wild the instructor will jump all over him and make him drive safely. There's not a lot to worry about except getting in your own head.
03-22-2009 10:08 AM
BadIdea No, the point is just show up to the track with a helmet and fresh brake fluid. Heal/toe is not required.
03-22-2009 09:42 AM
age replying above 2 posts^^

yeah fair enough. good points. so i guess the general concensus is that you should know how to heel-toe before getting on the track, but dont try it till you're entirely comfortable with the track and have a decent grasp of the basics (smooth steering, racing lines, braking pts).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlbbaseball View Post
To be honest w/ you, i'm still not 100% comfortable w/ heal toe footwork on the track. i can do it on a track, but sometimes i really have to focus!!!
couldnt agree more. most of the time i get close enough with the rev matching but i find i screw up on the slower corners. if im not concentrating, i rev the engine up to around 5.5k coz thats what im used to hearing even though i only need 4k.
03-22-2009 02:32 AM
kimbo305
Quote:
Originally Posted by age View Post
i realise i seem to have a difference in opinion with the rest of you. so if you think i am wrong (and thats absolutely fine), please say why and state your opinion as opposed to simply "you are so wrong." that doesnt help anyone.
Any amateur out on the track learning how to drive needs to be worrying about finding braking points, looking up, not jerking the wheel, tracking out properly, etc. If they have to brake earlier and do a normal downshift, it's better to do that than to throw heel-toe into the mix. There's simply far more basic things to be working on.

While I agree that you can certainly practice and have ready the technique of heel-toe before your first track day, there is no point for an instructor to ask the beginner to be working on that.
03-22-2009 01:11 AM
mlbbaseball To be honest w/ you, i'm still not 100% comfortable w/ heal toe footwork on the track. on the street when you do it, you don't rev match to 5 or 6k. i can do it on a track, but sometimes i really have to focus!!! Heal toe is not something to take lightly. I have a pedal extension on mine that i put on mine (take off my svt break pedal cover) and it makes it a little easier to blip, but by no means is it easy. best thing to do is go around the track SLOWLY (not 10 mph, but most definitely not so close that ur getting slight oversteer at the apex) and try to get the feel for heal toe driving. do it safely. and start off by staying in one gear too high for the laps so ur not max accell, though you will be at WOT. this will allow you to heal toe no more than 4k rpm so 1, you don't blow ur tranny, and two, don't freakin kill urself!! And I totally agree w/ age, you don't want to even attempt to do this on a track unless u have a VERY good feel for it!! Its definitely a technique for the intermediate to advanced!!
03-22-2009 12:15 AM
age yes i have been to the track, thanks. i'll do an in-car video nxt time i go, and post it up just for your entertainment.

and whats so funny about my example? when learning, many mistakes are made. one of which may include shifting mid-corner when it isnt nessesary. some corners however, force you to brake/ downshift and turn simultaneously. if you were really hammering it, shifting without heel-toe could very well be enough to break traction.

try rolling in 3rd gear at 4000 rpm. now drop it into 2nd without blipping the throttle. note the significant jerk. all im saying is that this is not what you want when you are setting up for a high commitment corner. and by heel-toeing, you can avoid much of this jolt, keeping your car settled as you enter the corner.

first time at the track, you have more than enough on your plate without the car jerking around just before a corner. so if you can heel-toe proficiently (or by 2nd nature as mlbbaseball says) by the time you get on the track, you will have one less thing to worry out.

first time i went, common questions asked by fellow track go-ers were "is it manual?" followed by "can you heel-toe?". i replied "yes" to both questions and they would reply "good". so i assumed heel-toe was a pretty normal thing to do on the track.

i realise i seem to have a difference in opinion with the rest of you. so if you think i am wrong (and thats absolutely fine), please say why and state your opinion as opposed to simply "you are so wrong." that doesnt help anyone.
03-21-2009 03:18 PM
BadIdea
Quote:
downshifting mid-corner is not ideal but occasionally it does happen (especially when you are still learning). without heel-toe, the jump in rpm can be enough to lock up the front wheels, or at least cause a decent jolt, inducing understeer and cause you to spear off the track. an extreme example but it can happen.
Have you ever been to a track? Funny stuff.
03-21-2009 01:58 PM
kimbo305
Quote:
Originally Posted by age View Post
badidea, i dont think heel-toe is an advanced technique for later on. i feel its almost a pre-requisite for going to the track. trail braking, left foot braking, lift off oversteer etc are all advanced techniques that are not needed on the track, but done to further improve lap times as drivers progress. heel-toe however, is not something done for such purposes.
You are so wrong.
03-21-2009 09:59 AM
age totally agree every who says you just have to try it to figure it out. driving on the track is a complex task and you cannot be totally prepared for every situation. you will learn many things after a few laps. definately recommend having an experienced driver with you.

badidea, i dont think heel-toe is an advanced technique for later on. i feel its almost a pre-requisite for going to the track. trail braking, left foot braking, lift off oversteer etc are all advanced techniques that are not needed on the track, but done to further improve lap times as drivers progress. heel-toe however, is not something done for such purposes. on the track, you will be accellerating and braking hard and there will come a time when you need to downshift. downshift all day at 4000 rpm (without heel-toe-ing) and see how well your clutch (or the rest of the drivetrain) holds up. heel-toe is also a safe practice. downshifting mid-corner is not ideal but occasionally it does happen (especially when you are still learning). without heel-toe, the jump in rpm can be enough to lock up the front wheels, or at least cause a decent jolt, inducing understeer and cause you to spear off the track. an extreme example but it can happen. so my view is that heel toe is something that should be learnt and perfected (on a quiet back street away from traffic) before trying it on the track. expect a few months of practice before you can do it well.

when you get on the track, i wouldnt worry about shifting for the first couple of laps. just get a feel for the track. but when you start driving hard you would definately wanna be using heel-toe.
03-20-2009 09:05 AM
BadIdea
Quote:
Originally Posted by age View Post
mlbbaseball, i kinda disagree about heel-toe-ing later on. i feel that you should be competent at heel-toe before you even venture out onto the track. i agree that for the first few laps you should keep it a gear too high and learn the track layout. but after that, you would need to be shifting gears and every time to downshift, you should heel-toe it.
Absolutely wrong. Not one instructor will agree with you. Again, it's an advanced technique that you learn later on.

Quote:
"O, and if you go into the turn while braking too hard, you will get oversteer, not understeer. The back end will rip around from behind you and ur off of the track. "

yeah usually it causes oversteer. works kinda like lifting off the throttle. but sometimes it can cause understeer. this one time i was turning in too fast and riding the brakes too hard. this put way too much pressure into the front tyres and i started understeering before the back end had a chance to whip around. another time i tried brushing the brakes mid corner to get some oversteer but again i hit the brakes too hard and made the front slide out.
That is the friction circle.
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