The Truth about DSG: R.I.P. Stick Shift - Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum
Ford Focus Forum
HomeContact UsAbout UsGalleryDiscussion ForumsMarketplace


Go Back   Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum > Ford Focus Discussions > Ford Focus & General Car Chat

Ford Focus & General Car Chat Discussion Forum relating to nonspecific Ford Focus models, car purchasing, auto industry news and any car talk.

Search This Forum | Image Search | Advanced Search    
FocusFest FocusFanatics Merchandise

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-27-2006, 08:15 AM   #1
Focus Fanatic
 
igor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Fan#: 25921
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
What I Drive: 2004 Mazda3s Sedan MTX

Posts: 2,023
FF Reputation: 1 igor Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
The Truth about DSG: R.I.P. Stick Shift

The auto blog www.TheTurthAboutCars.com has a very good writeup on the DSG and its implications for the future of stick shift.... I find it very well written and while I still hate the idea of clutchless performance cars, I cannot but agree with this piece..
Igor

-------------------------------
SOURCE:http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/con...9731880944331/
-------------------------------

DSG: Stick Shift RIP
26 February 2006
By Robert Farago



If you were going to invent a way to control an automobile, you wouldn’t ask the average driver to develop the skill and coordination of a church organist. Note I said “average.” As far as hardcore automotive enthusiasts and skilled pipe organ players are concerned, there’s nothing more natural or satisfying than making beautiful music with a sublime dance of hands and feet. Yes, well, the average person would rather drive an automatic and download an iTune. Pistonheads and pipe worshippers may sneer, but if the majority of humans didn’t take the path of least resistance our species would still be stuck in the trees. Meanwhile, just as digital sound has invaded God’s house and rocked the organist’s world, Audi’s DSG transmission is here and tripedalists are toast.

The day F1 racing cars switched to paddle shift control, the clutch pedal was doomed. Only the system's violence kept it from a date with old Sparky. Ferrari’s ground-breaking attempts at a passenger paddler were representative rubbish; the clunky F1 system transformed the sublime F355 into a herky-jerky one-track pony. Other early systems were equally obtrusive, equally foul. At the same time, style conscious high-end manufacturers added wheel-mounted button shifts and gate activated “tip shifts.” Although the technology simply handed customers slushbox control, computers eventually transformed the systems into a reasonably convincing halfway house between mindless ease and endless excitement.

Aston's Vanquish got closer to the real deal. If drivers tapped its over-sized plus paddle at the exact right rpm, the V12 GT rewarded them with a perfectly timed gear change. If not, not. Other systems followed: Ferrari, Maserati, BMW, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, even Toyota (MR2 Spyder). All of these paddle shifters downshift magnificently-- even blipping the throttle on your behalf-- but they either slur their upchanges like a drunk handing you a cigarette or smack you in the back of the head like a sadistic schoolteacher. And that’s without considering the challenges of around town ambling or, God forbid, reverse (a non-issue for F1, obviously).

And then BorgWarner and Volkswagen AG developed DSG. The direct shift gearbox (DSG) features two wet plate clutches: one engages the odd-numbered gears, the second the even-numbered gears. When the first clutch is putting down the power, a computer readies the second clutch to engage the next gear (pre-selected according to engine revs and speed). When the driver bangs the paddle for another gear or the automatic calls for another cog, the first clutch is released and the second engages. Gear shifts are fast, smooth and accurate; both up and down the ratios. The DSG’s computer-- complete with 12 sensors-- stands guard against “inappropriate” gear selection; an over-twitchy paddle shifter can’t stall or blow up the engine.

OK rivet counters: Volksie didn’t invent the double clutch. Citroen offered something similar over 70 years ago, and Porsche’s formidable 962 racer also gave it a go. But VW and BorgWarner have just about perfected the DSG. (The only drawbacks are a certain sluggishness when gently tipping-in and a slight hesitation when paddling down more than one gear, as the DSG shuffles through the intervening ratios.) Even with its quirks, the DSG rules-- to the point where the clutch pedal and traditional manual gearbox is a mechanical redundancy, a dead device shifting. In fact, any car manufacturer who doesn’t have a DSG or something similar installed in their performance-oriented products will soon be at a tremendous disadvantage.

And here’s where the culture wars begin. Two years ago, Bob Elton’s editorial “Death to the Stick Shift” suggested that cars equipped with an automatic gearbox were safer, more reliable and more pleasurable than their manual equivalents. Enthusiasts considered the proposition a personal affront. Two years of flame mail leads me to conclude that stickshifters-- a self-selecting community of motorists who cherish the skill and pleasure that only a manual transmission can provide-- consider autoboxers less competent, safe and passionate. Many of these tripedalists will not take kindly to the DSG; it’s a bridge from the know-nothing rabble to the self-proclaimed automotive elite. The barbarians are at the shift gate; The Volkswagen Group has unlocked the door.

It will be some time before this issue plays out, but the stickshifters will lose. Once they get behind the wheel of a DSG-equipped machine like the new Audi A3 or the VW R32, even the hardiest of these manual transmission diehards will be hooked by the system’s clear superiority; in terms of speed, ergonomic ease and, most importantly of all, enjoyment. Eventually, the tide will turn. Automakers will be forced to buy "dual clutch transmission" technology from BorgWarner or their partner Getrag, or develop something at least as good. Of course, there will still be enthusiasts who stick with the stick, for personal pride and sensual satisfaction. In the meantime, a quick message from Paddle Shifters Anonymous to open-minded automotive enthusiasts: get ready for some serious fun.


igor is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-27-2006, 08:21 AM   #2
Focus Fanatic
 
Carrera26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Fan#: 12237
Location: Gainesville, FL
What I Drive: 2005 Mazda3 2.3/2003 VW Passat GLX

Posts: 2,957
FF Reputation: 2 Carrera26 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
I guess it's for us to decide which is more fun... the perfectly executed downshift or the extra concentration that can be paid to steering and throttle.

While I think that manuals offer a huge amount of fun, I have to agree that there's no question that this is the way things are going. Although like Morgan, someone out there will find a niche developing "pure" cars with all manual controls.
__________________
Don't waste another minute waiting on parts, or anything else. Just get out there and start racing! You will suck at first, and you will be slower than many other cars, but the only thing you will regret is not starting earlier...
Carrera26 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 11:50 AM   #3
Regulator...mount up
 
PapoSwing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Fan#: 3062
Location: Zombieland, United States
What I Drive: 03 Pitch Black SVT

Posts: 3,025
Points 5,930, Level 49
Points: 5,930, Level: 49 Points: 5,930, Level: 49 Points: 5,930, Level: 49
Level Up 90% Completed
Level up: 90% Level up: 90% Level up: 90%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 28 PapoSwing Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (10)
Look why cam't these transmission just replace automatics? I'm a traditionalist I like my clutch! I just hope that manual cars will be given the same level of attention in terms of performance
PapoSwing is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 12:56 PM   #4
Focus Fanatic
 
Carrera26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Fan#: 12237
Location: Gainesville, FL
What I Drive: 2005 Mazda3 2.3/2003 VW Passat GLX

Posts: 2,957
FF Reputation: 2 Carrera26 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
^^^Because the people who want the most speed will be taking the SMGs as well. They are just faster.

I'm waiting for the day when the CVT really comes into it's own and there won't be ANY shifting of ANY kind. (Not waiting with glee, but it's coming)
__________________
Don't waste another minute waiting on parts, or anything else. Just get out there and start racing! You will suck at first, and you will be slower than many other cars, but the only thing you will regret is not starting earlier...
Carrera26 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 01:02 PM   #5
Focus Fanatic
 
igor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Fan#: 25921
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
What I Drive: 2004 Mazda3s Sedan MTX

Posts: 2,023
FF Reputation: 1 igor Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (2)
^^^^ yup the DSG is faster and moother and has only as much driveline loss as the MTX.... the Evo x will be coming only with DSG.. NO STICK... so much for this affecting only Automatics...

I am very upset by the demise of Stics.. especially now when the only viable alternative (motorize transmission - e.g. DSG) are not widespread yet...
you end up with no option but a slushbox.

Igor
igor is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 01:17 PM   #6
Egz
Sückn' n Blown
 
Egz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Fan#: 442
Location: Tappahannock, VA
What I Drive: 2003 2.3l ZX3

Posts: 7,742
FF Reputation: 111 Egz Excellent Standing Member Egz Excellent Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (3)
See, I disagree. The point of a manual is you have complete control over when you shift, while not having the power losses of a torque converter. With DSG, its still a manual.

I guess I can't be hard on anyone though. Its just like ABS vs. non. Hard core enthusiests feel that non-ABS is better because you have more control. (which puts me in that camp sorta, since I looked for a Focus without ABS, and found it, pretty easy to do ). This is just like that, since the computer is controling the clutch/throttle for you on a the shift.

I've since changed a little (I guess as getting older), and I wouldn't mind having ABS now. Same goes for DSG. Both just improve upon their appropiate devices without sacrificing anything. However, I'm still not in the ACS/TCS/ESP/etc camp, since they take away instead of giving.
Egz is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 01:19 PM   #7
Focus Fanatic
 
Carrera26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Fan#: 12237
Location: Gainesville, FL
What I Drive: 2005 Mazda3 2.3/2003 VW Passat GLX

Posts: 2,957
FF Reputation: 2 Carrera26 Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
In the development of the S3 Elise, they asked the Lotus development driver how many times ABS triggered on track, to which he responded "Not once!". Telemtetry revealed that ABS engaged 11 times.

TheFrushI think that you'd get about halfway through that sentence before the army of customers behind you broke through the door and trampled you to get to said car...

Again, we are a small and isolated minority guys and gals. Don't expect anyone to cater to us. Between the average buyer into ease of use and the speed freak only concerned about that 0-60 time, and the track guys who will go for any edge to win... we're nothing.

And then maybe we're all just Luddites.
__________________
Don't waste another minute waiting on parts, or anything else. Just get out there and start racing! You will suck at first, and you will be slower than many other cars, but the only thing you will regret is not starting earlier...
Carrera26 is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 01:33 PM   #8
New Member
 
SD_Focus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Fan#: 11575
Location: San Diego, CA
What I Drive: 2001 BMW Z3 Roadster 3.0

Posts: 2,272
Points 7,947, Level 59
Points: 7,947, Level: 59 Points: 7,947, Level: 59 Points: 7,947, Level: 59
Level Up 99% Completed
Level up: 99% Level up: 99% Level up: 99%
Forum Activity 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
FF Reputation: 34 SD_Focus Great Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (14)
Sorry guys, but I am for technology and better performance. I will accept it and enjoy the better perforance as it seems this will be able to outperform a car with 3 pedals. You guys are always poking at people who are all show and no go. Well I would rather be faster around the track than to be throwing that stick around and ranting to myself while I get passed by racers with their DSG.
__________________
SoCal Crew #21
SD_Focus is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 01:59 PM   #9
Oni
Oh yeah!
 
Oni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Fan#: 24899
Location: Mustang, OK
What I Drive: An unloved Focus

Posts: 2,522
FF Reputation: 4 Oni Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (6)
Hmm, this is strange. Why are the manuals going to be dead? This is a system that controls everything automatically. If all cars went with DSG, that would mean only one transmission and lower production costs. However, I think the automatic will live on and the DSG will be the performance alternative, which sadly means increased production cost.

I personally enjoyed driving a car with tiptronic shifters. While it may not feel as rewarding, my mind was focused on the driving and the enjoyment rather than the proper gear and if I'm going to beat my tranny up for the downshift I'm about to do.

It's going to happen, so there's no point in fearing this change. I just hate to think about the fact of sports cars going up in cost even more. I supppose it's true, though, you lose the "pureness" of the car. You're controlling the vehicle less, and the computer's doing more of the driving than you.
__________________
SVT Squad #80
1365 of 3985
Born: 04/25/2003


formerly known as the member ilcowil
Oni is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-27-2006, 02:27 PM   #10
Focus Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Fan#: 27624
Location: delaware
What I Drive: 2002 white zts

Posts: 181
FF Reputation: 1 ZTSdriver Good Standing Member
Buy-Sell-Trade Rating: (0)
i hate to say it, but the article is right. personally i'll have to try the system before i can really judge it, but in terms of pure driving joy, i dont see what could be more fun than putting my left foot down on the clutch then reaching to the gearbox and selecting the next gear.
__________________
ZETEC Crew # 72
2002 Focus ZTS white
mods: K+N air filter
ZTSdriver is offline  
    Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks & Social Networks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Focus Forum, Ford Focus ST Forum, Ford Focus RS Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:08 PM.


Copyright 2002-2015 FocusFanatics.com. All Rights Reserved : Privacy Policy : Advertise Information

Focus Fanatics Ford Focus Forum offers many fun ways for you to engage with other Ford Focus Owners from across the world. Whether it be about the aftermarket performance modifications, technical how-to's, European tuned suspension or awesome fuel economy similar to the Mazda CX-3, Audi S3, Mazda MX-5 Miata and Acura TLX. You can find all Ford Focus, Focus ST and Focus RS related information here. Join our Ford Focus discussion forums and chat with local Focus enthusiasts in your area. If you own other makes have a look at Challenger Hellcat Forum, Charger Hellcat Forum, Cadillac ATS-V Forum, Cadillac CTS-V Forum, Lexus RC-F Forum, Lexus GS-F Forum, Mercedes GLA Forum, Mercedes GLE Forum and Volvo XC90 Forum.





Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1