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TRACK: Oh The Horror !!!!!!

6K views 45 replies 23 participants last post by  StealthGray 
#1 ·
#5 ·
Poor course design was the opinion of the person that sent it to me. [V]
 
#7 ·
oh man....i can just imegine the look on all those damage cars owners........id probably strangle the Vett owner anyway
 
#11 ·
Lsat words heard...

"So I says to Myrtle, no, no use the other one. You know that vegetable oil and twister don't.... OMYGAWD!!!!!" [ohcrap]

Not being there, there's awhole lot that looks like it could have been done differently. Logical culprit is course design.

I am really hoping that someone on this forum was there and tell the full story.
 
#9 ·
You simply can't plan for every eventuallity and you have to work with the course area you are given.... but still there are some very serious course design issues there!
 
#15 ·
wow. and i though old people's driving in everyday traffic was scary. what was he doing in a 300+ horse vette to start with. my guess is he was on the phone lol
 
#16 ·
Having been on the receiving end of this type of thing. I know how bad it sucks, but what are you gonna do? Well, thats when you walk up to the guy, and ask him for his insurance info...now please. LOL

BTW..My focus was punched by a kid doing a burnout in daddy's turbo PT cruiser at a car show. Luckily, as sad as it is. It hit my focus ( the wife drove it ), and not the Acura NSX I had driven there from a friends shop.
 
#17 ·
As I understand it, Corvettes and Porches handle very differently at 10/10ths. He's just lucky that he didn't hurt someone.

In their thread, many people questioned their continued participation in autocross due to safety concerns. When the focus is on the few dramatic accidents that occur in the thousand of autocross events, and probably tens of thousands of individual runs each year, what missed is how many accidents are avoided due to driver skills learned there.

A couple of nights ago I was almost in a head-on accident. I was about a 1/10th of a mile from my driveway, on a tight 30mph corner. An oncoming driver was running it about 50mph and was half-way in my lane. Due to the beautiful driving dynamics of my car, and skill certainly honed autocrossing, I was able to make a Very Abrupt course change, miss the idiot, and collect my car back up and stay on the road. If you’ve been thinking about trying autrocross don’t let this scare you away. There is inherent danger, but it is fairly small.
 
#18 ·
As I understand it, Corvettes and Porches handle very differently at 10/10ths. He's just lucky that he didn't hurt someone.

In their thread, many people questioned their continued participation in autocross due to safety concerns. When the focus is on the few dramatic accidents that occur in the thousand of autocross events, and probably tens of thousands of individual runs each year, what missed is how many accidents are avoided due to driver skills learned there.

A couple of nights ago I was almost in a head-on accident. I was about a 1/10th of a mile from my driveway, on a tight 30mph corner. An oncoming driver was running it about 50mph and was half-way in my lane. Due to the beautiful driving dynamics of my car, and skill certainly honed autocrossing, I was able to make a Very Abrupt course change, miss the idiot, and collect my car back up and stay on the road. If you’ve been thinking about trying autrocross don’t let this scare you away. There is inherent danger, but it is fairly small.
Well said.

It is a shame, but at the same time when an incident like this takes place, the ill thought out knee jerk reaction is to blame the event.

After reading through the thread, its understandable why the safety steward is on the defensive. Still, "arm chair quarterbacking" here says that maybe they should/could have done more in the way of safety.

Bottom line is like V said. Pony up your insurance card and move on. AX benefits far outweigh the RARE and unfortunate nature of this incident.
 
#19 ·
Having had the opportunity to help design a course for an AX (I was there really early and it was a low-key event), I got to hear alot about the designer's thoughts on where to place elements to prevent a high-speed section from pointing towards any off-track hazards.

It sounds like this whole incident was outside the envelope - a driver doing 10/10ths in a *very* fast car that he didn't know. That's the one thing that never should have happened. They mentioned not letting drivers drive other cars at an event - I don't know that that would be required, maybe just not allow car/driver swaps for the SS and other top car classes?
No Novices in SS without a training class or experienced co-driver?
 
#20 ·
I have witnessed a different GT3 wreck itself at an auto-x event a year or 2 ago. Even though you put as much thought as u can into course design, the fact is a GT3 at 10/10ths will have so much momentum, that they will go a Loooooooooonnnnnngg way before they stop if they are out of control.
 
#21 ·
True, but it was the Vette that instigated the whole affair and the same argument applies.

"The guy let his friend drive the 4th run. The friend was driving a nice mid 90's Vette and was one of the fastest cars in the run group. So as he came through the finish cones, he went to grab the brakes but got the clutch instead and this is the aftermath...."

In our events, novices (the site lists the driver as a "friend", but is not clear if the driver was a registered participant) are not permitted to drive other people's cars in fun runs. This example is a big reason why. Under no circumstances is someone who is not registered for an event permitted to drive, even in fun runs.
 
#24 ·
That's a really good and relevant point.

A few years back, Mitsubishi began denying warranty claims for the EVO because people were AXing and taking them to track events. The car would blow up and the dealers would refuse to make the repairs based on "racing" the car. The owner and the car were then "black listed" in the database so that other dealerships would know. Often, mistakes were made.

Insurance and AX has been a topic of frequent discussion on these forums, not a single insurance company will honor a claim for racing. That's why AX and track events are billed as precision driving events and driving schools. Insurance companies will honor those claims.

At our local events, we are very quick to point out that people are not racing, do not use that term, do not pass go, do not collect $200. The reason being is that if a picture is posted and someone describes "Matt racing his Yugo", and it is seen by an insurance company that monitors web sites, then someone can get dropped really quickly.

Mitsubishi monitors web sites, it's not unreasonable to think that a large insurance carrier would as well. However, I have to differ to Carrera as this is his area of expertise.

Carrera - Your thoughts?
 
#23 ·
IMO it seems everybody is putting way too much thought into this thing. Course design was acceptable, the possible experience of the driver was acceptable, therefore there wasn't any red flags before the accident. Basically if you miss the break pedal when you should be doing a firm stop, of course its not gonna end bad. Its not saftey steward nor drivers fault, things happen especially in an unfamilar car. No one is to blame because no one could have forseen this and then said, hey guys theres gonna be an accident soon, lets try and prevent it now
 
#25 ·
Tua-

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree to a certain extent.

It does warrant discussion and thought, because to your point, stuff happens.

A lot of us AX and attend track events and would like to continue to do so. Examples like the one I posted represents a possible threat to that enjoyment. Everything from insurance to warranties to participation. I want to emphasize again that this is a RARE occurence, but the knee jerk reaction is to blame the activity. I think we are all in agreement that to do that would be a mistake.

I go back to my original request. This was an SCCA event in the Northwest. If anyone on this forum was there and can provide additional detail, I would appreciate it as I wasn't there. So, a lot of questions are unanswered. We can all learn from it.

That said, regardless of the circumstance, some responsibility does lie with the safety steward. Be it an issue of course design or by allowing a novice or non-participant drive the course, he and his/her team needed to be vigillant.

I do agree with you that there are elements that are beyond control of even the steward which is why you take as many precautions as possible. The worst incidents that I've ever seen either resulted from driver error or in mechanical failure. The first of which was a car where the driver overshot a gate at speed, over corrected and went sideways over railroad tracks. Lots of damage to the car that resulted from driver error. The second was a tie rod broke on an MG and he went head first into a light pole squashing the car and the driver broke his nose on the steering wheel. To add insult to injury, the military police (this was at Cameron Station in Alexandria, VA) wrote him a ticket for hitting an imovable object. The third was also driver error where an IDIOT was doing a burnouts in the paddock area. Before the organizers could get there to throw him out, he managed to impale his brand new CLK 420 on a concrete abutment. Finally, a minor incident where another Benz (E55) over corrected and went over a curb 60 feet from the gate. In each instance (except the idiot) all were experienced drivers.

So, I accept that you can't account for all circumstances. Still, that's why we have insurance and move on. You have to accept that an incident is a possibility, but the safety steward MUST accept some responsibility. Otherwise, we don't need or shouldn't have them.
 
#26 ·
I say these things not to be argumentative, but rather to foster discussion.
 
#27 ·
Some people's only purpose in life is to server as a warning to others. This wasn't a porsche 911 handling issue - the car was straight and in control. He simply somehow wasn't able to stop while driving in a straight line.

I've never tried an autocross and probably won't in the future. Mainly due to a lot of standing around and only getting a few 40 second runs but this certainly doesn't help.

Also don't rely on the internet or word of mouth for information about being covered in a timed event in a parking lot, or a driver education on a big track. I would speak directly with your insurance agent. Even if they do cover your mistake, you most likely be dropped and end up paying a higher rate with another carrier.
 
#28 ·
Some people's only purpose in life is to server as a warning to others. This wasn't a porsche 911 handling issue - the car was straight and in control. He simply somehow wasn't able to stop while driving in a straight line.

I've never tried an autocross and probably won't in the future. Mainly due to a lot of standing around and only getting a few 40 second runs but this certainly doesn't help.

Also don't rely on the internet or word of mouth for information about being covered in a timed event in a parking lot, or a driver education on a big track. I would speak directly with your insurance agent. Even if they do cover your mistake, you most likely be dropped and end up paying a higher rate with another carrier.
Completely agree.

Unfortunately, mistakes do happen and people get dropped from insurance companies as a result after covering the claim.

Such is the risk we take.

However, "boots on the ground" do offer perspective when we try to learn the full story.
 
#31 ·
To respond only to your signature...

Yes, I have fired 2 guns while leaping through the air, but only while playing HALO 2...

[wave]
 
#32 ·
well weeasp, you got a decent discussion going on here, and yes, we shouldn't focus on placing blame, but rather take this as an oppurtunity to learn. There is a Chinese saying, "When a mistake is made, do not gather and hunt down those at fault, but rather strive to fix the mistake together." Now granted this is a mistake we cant exactly fix, but we should definately be better prepared for such things.
 
#33 ·
I like the quote...

I am curious to know how other regions handle course design, safety and the regulation of novice drivers. I know that the SCCA provides guidelines, but at the same time, that's just what they are - guidelines. They don't fit every lot that's used.

All of these things are a challenge. You want to make a course fun and challenging, but at the same time, safe.

Here in NOVA, for the local Benz club, we require that gates be at least 10 feet wide and not be any closer than 30 feet to a curb. Obviously, judgement is used when laying these out so that a high speed straight doesn't end at a curb. The other is the stop garage. Ours are always place away from start and funnel the cars to run off areas that do not have traffic or standing cars.

Other than those guidelines, the course designers have carte blanche. We have 3 safety stewards then evaluate the course. During set up, walk through and then one is designated to drive the course with the other 2 riding for a final assessment. Sounds like a lot, but we have it pretty well down to a science. Also, the chief safety steward reserves the right to alter the course at anytime if something was overlooked and represents a safety issue.

Just curious how other AX groups handle their events. Where appropriate, I think it would be good to take those different techniques and apply them here locally.

Hopefully, through an exchange of ideas, we can make our courses safer and not be subject to the horrible incident posted originally.

Thoughts and comments welcome, so please chime in.
 
#34 ·
I've only run two seasons, and haven't been involved with course design, or functioned as a safety steward. I do know that our local SCCA club empowers all of the autocross participants to call a halt if they observe unsafe practices. I know that the SS has final responsibility, but I wonder how many participants at this event are feeling some level of responsibility for not calling a halt when they saw a potential for a problem that actually occured?
 
#35 ·
I had the same question.

Speculating here, but to have wreaked that much havoc, I would have thought there were other signs while the guy was on course that might have been a signal to flag his run.

Don't know, but I have this feeling that he was way beyond 10/10ths even before the crash...

Interesting note that all participants are empowered. I'm not sure about our club. I think that the safety stewards, the organizer and the course workers are the only ones that can call a halt.

I'll have to check into that.
 
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