: BIG nitrous
06-07-2005, 11:13 PM
I know a few brave souls have run a 100 shot on the zetec, some far more successfully than others. haha. Wondering who's turned it up the farthest? We've managed to max out the plate system on the blue car (zx351) and are in the process of upgrading to get more sauce, which got me wondering about my system on the lil 4 cyl. I have as many bases covered as far as safety and strength, my only concerns left are those of tuning. fs won't burn me a chip, which I'm sure is a blessing in some form, and I've found an sct guy here in tulsa who's gonna help me out with the tuning, and our local hondata guy will be running the show. I also got a dyno sponsor, so I have as much time as it'll take to get it right. My first goal is 150 shot, that on top of the new motor should put me somewhere mid 3's to the ground if I can keep it together. I'd really like to discuss things with those who have gone before if there are any... such as timing retard etc. My fuel system is nearly complete, so I'll be ordering a safeguard sometime in the next couple weeks. I'm mainly wondering at what retard to set it for say 100 and 150. Any insight (from those who have been there) greatly appreciated. Thoughts, ideas, questions... put em out there. we've been in need of a useful nitrous thread for a while now
06-07-2005, 11:29 PM
you obviously have a death wish
06-08-2005, 12:07 AM
no so much as a fast-wish.
06-08-2005, 12:10 AM
150? damn, i'm too scared to run more than a 50.
06-08-2005, 12:11 AM
Viney your a wild man[}:)] , yea ive heard of people running 100 shot pretty much stock but im sure with tuning. Man this sucks tho, look how i messed my engine just on a 50 shot.
Viney keep us updated on how this is working out for you, seems like your gonna have all the saftey stuff covered so good luck.
06-08-2005, 12:20 AM
<looks around for viney>
yeah I ran a 75 shot for a long time on stock interns, I know the new gear will hold it, its just a matter of teaching our "rainman" ecu to learn new things.
as far as nitrous, I have a standalone fuel system that feeds just the direct port 111 octane, window switch, fuel/oil pressure switches, wot switch (of course), toying with a progressive controller, but not sure yet, js safegard, popout safety "freezeplugs" in the intake mani just incase, blah blah... forged everything, huge exhaust from cam to tailpipe... crap i know theres more... what else?
06-08-2005, 01:46 AM
Well....we had a fellow at the shop running a 150 shot on his built b18 civic.. He was a fool in my opinion and ran it all at one time..in a single shot...silly
If I were doing that on a 4 cyl. I would def. have a safeguard to listen for knock.. as you know any det. at the level will wreck you.
Next I would stage it in..Either just set up two different nozzles..or the right way to do it IMO would be like a 50 shot at a standard nozzle with a direct port spraying the other hundered...you could even put electonic control on the direct port hit to stage it in slowely ( that costs $$$$ , NX has the set-up in there catalogue for 700-800 bucks ) over time.
Put the direct port setup on first and have the nozzle set-up spray off a button, only spray the last 50 after you regain traction and are on the top end.
I know you know this squatch but this is for everyone else...ONLY run this on race fuel
Last but not least, pull an a$$ load of timing and dial it back down... I use a snap-on mechanics ear to listen for knock, you can clip it on the block and also put an end on one of the probes to fit an O2 bung...Det. is the enemy here..
Never done it with a fofo.. I will answer what I can.. also Tom is very knowledgable about nitrous.. I would seek his advice as well.
Also at this level make sure you have a free flowing intake..you need lots of air
Last, watch the rev limiter for a backfire..do whatever you need to stay out of that..
06-08-2005, 07:59 AM
lots of good points, i'm looking for roughly how much timing is "an assload" i think the js can go 12 degrees at an instant. from what i've heard the nx direct port loves a progressive controller and works very nicely, so i think thats the road i'm gonna take. everything so far just in the nitrous setup is well over 3k so i'm not cutting any corners, and i don't have a fuel solution or the js yet, haha. dammit this is an expensive project.
06-08-2005, 08:07 AM
I agree with viney, use a dual stage system, and split it. I would just do two 75 shot stages
06-08-2005, 10:24 AM
The direct port can be jetted as low as a 75 shot if you call NX..It is listed down to 100, but it can go to 75. I would definately jet it to 100 and use the progressive controller to start it off small..
I installed one of the first Gen progressive controllers on a bike ( the older controller with the knobs). It was kind of stagy but it worked fine. The new electronic one should be even smoother.
As far as the timing, I would pull maybe 8 degrees to start.( mind you that is an educated guess).. Do you have some way to listen for Detonation?? You need to with that size of hit..
06-09-2005, 12:22 AM
the js safeguard is switched on by a signal, like hooked into your solenoids, at which time it instantly retards as much as you set, like say 8 degrees, so whenever t he solenoid is firing the timing is retarded,,, then comes the safegard part, it has a knock sensor that listens for deto, if it hears it, it starts to retard even more until the deto is gone. its really a great system, I dont' know why everyone wouldnt run one. Yes, the new progressive controllers are very smooth, one is digital and you can run it thru a laptop or palmpilot to graph so its very user friendly. Stage, launch, then 1 second (for example) in the nitrous starts at 25 percent, then by 2.5 seconds its full strength, then shift and it comes on fullblast or whatever u want in second. program it depending on track conditions, traction, whatever, to get you as much power as possible without spinning the tires. i want 150, I had 190 on the stock engine. I didn't spend 10k on my car to get it ready to not go big. hopefully everyone will collectively cross their fingers and all things will go well. haha.
06-09-2005, 12:51 AM
Fingers officially crossed !! Also, don't forget the tech guys at NX. They are pretty good and def. willing to talk to you, especially when you are doing something interesting.
06-09-2005, 12:52 AM
g, i was looking at you for inspiration. tom did me a bullit engine. we was planning F/I, big shot of nitrous. i chickened out cus too many people was blowing up the motors at the time. i didnt want to risk blowing my intake manifold either. im going turbo for now.
06-09-2005, 01:21 AM
oh man, ol blue had 18 psi and roughly a 90 shot for a while, scared the piss out of me. long story short, injector took a dump and put a 1" dia hole in top of piston and still beat a 2k vette on 3 cyls by about 3 buslengths :D he had me drive it once, without the nitrous, flipped the switch and said go for it. i actually chickened out. haha crazy fast. the new engine is a lot faster and more fun to drive imo. i don't blame u for the chicken out, if i hadn't stumbled into some sponsorship money i would have never spent this much on my own, but hey u only live once right? i figure if i set a record or whoop some ass at national events, the money'll keep on comin in, and that'll finish our other few project cars :D
06-09-2005, 01:30 AM
I love turbo cars with the spray on the bottom that shuts off when the boost comes up to a point!!!
06-09-2005, 07:55 AM
haha yeah, right now i'm helping a friend do a super single on a 95 supra, turbo's so big he's gonna have to run nitrous to get outa the hole. big boost makes an auto car sound good :P
06-09-2005, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by mr.squatch
the js safeguard is switched on by a signal, like hooked into your solenoids, at which time it instantly retards as much as you set, like say 8 degrees, so whenever t he solenoid is firing the timing is retarded,,, then comes the safegard part, it has a knock sensor that listens for deto, if it hears it, it starts to retard even more until the deto is gone. its really a great system, I dont' know why everyone wouldnt run one
Some food for thought , I have been doing a lot of testing with the j&s on Foci lately and have come to the conclusion there no better at retarding timing than the stock knock retard altho they do have other options like timing retart for nitrous and boost it has not proven it self as a tuning tool in my opinion or better as a safeguard than the stock KR
I have an SVT Focus in my shop not that i ended up having to turn off all knock retard =KR in the tuning software so i let the j&s do the work , I was seeing 8 deg of KR timing so i pulled out 6 deg of timing, power went in the crapper and yet the j&s was still pulling 7 to 8 deg of timing so i pulled another 5 just to see what would happen power fell off 25HP , i put the 11 deg of timing back in and un hooked the js , all my power came back , i turned off the js and put back the factors KR and did the same test over with the same results , the factory KR was doing the same exact KR as the js at the same RPM , it was my understand that the js was faster than the factory KR and more aggressive , does not seem to be the case on this car
I hooked the js back up and turned the sensivity all the way down this had little to no effect , I turned off ALL KR and added another 3 deg of timing and picked up 13HP at the wheels , i know turn off KR on about everything i do SVT Focus wise
I think the problem is the knock sensor is to sensitive for boost , the factory sensor and knock retard does more than just pick up on knock it also reads improper combustion (not just from deto) and does not like to see a real rich condition and will activate the knock retard , the best way to cure this is turn off ALL timing adders AF , Octane , load , Etc
I have run into this many times now with the js and in most cases i turn it off to tune the customers car then give him the option of if he wants it back on , the ZX3 seems to work with the js better than the SVT , Most SVT i have to turn off the factory KR to tune them
My opinion would be to start with a 50 shot get it tuned and safe then work you way up , I have a stock Focus local living on a 100 shot stock engine and about 85 to 90 bottles through it , a custom chip done on a dyno will be a must
06-09-2005, 09:34 AM
I have a stock Focus local living on a 100 shot stock engine and about 85 to 90 bottles through it
06-09-2005, 09:42 AM
You are right ^^ That does sound like a great weekend...LOL
06-09-2005, 11:29 PM
does my car have a knock sensor tom?
06-10-2005, 07:42 AM
Unless you have taken it off all Foci have them
The j&s hooks into your factory knock sensor wiring , the ZX3 does not seem to have the same problems as the SVT with the knock needing to be turned off because of over retard but inefficient combustion will set off the knock sensor