The Following Information was obtained from a News Site here In Indiana. Since I just bought a 2005 Car, I thought I would share this information that was NOT Passed on to me by the dealership.

I do believe that this may indeed infringe on OUR 4th amendment rights. Please read the following report and give me some feedback on this...
thank you.

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FOX 59 REPORT: The Black Box in your Car


Kimberly King

November 30, 2004

Event Data Recorder or Black Box monitors your driving.

Mom Sarah Hauke is picking up her Volvo station wagon from the dealership. The sun is shining, the car's back in good shape and she's ready to roll. But as she's putting her little boy in the back seat to head home, she hasn't the faintest idea this reporter's lurking in the background working on this very story just a few feet away. "Do you know your car has a little black box recording how fast your going?" Sarah's eyes open a wide. "No, I had no idea!" The fact is most drivers don't have an inkling most auto manufacturers are installing event data recorder's otherwise known as little black boxes into nearly every car that comes off the assembly line.

"I think it's a good thing if it can help with investigations into accidents and help prove something," Hauke adds.

The Black boxes are currently used in crash investigations. The boxes have a running stream of information going through them: your car's speed ie how fast you're going, the engine's speed, whether the brake is used, the position of the gas pedal, whether you were wearing your seatbelt.

But the box experts say only starts actually recording information if your car is involved in some kind of impact or crash where the airbags may deploy.

Car Expert Max Beaver has a weekly weekend radio show on WIBC. He's been following the story of little black boxes. Some feel the boxes are an invasion of privacy, but Beaver makes the following argument. "From a mechanical standpoint I don't feel it's an invasion of privacy. On the other hand if I'm driving down the road going 95mph and I cause an accident would I want that information shared that I didn't put my foot on the brake no I don't think so and those are the kinds of people who might try to argue it's an invasion."

Beaver says currently only your car's manufacturer can un-encrypt the information recorded in a black box. But more and more police departments are investing money into the training an proprietary rights to gain access to the information in black boxes. "The black box records real time events and it's a moving target but it's critical when it's recording an event," said Beaver.

"It freezes the information at the time of that event say a crash, and then we have the ability to go in and see what was going on at that moment."

Investigators can use the information to validate or invalidate someone's story of what happened during a car accident.

Several weeks ago investigators tried to get information from the black box of a Lafayette School bus involved in a serious crash. In this instance they were disappointed to find the box didn't work but in many cases police say the box can give them vital information to help with their investigation. Manufacturers will often use the data from the box to dispute an automobile owner's claim their car malfunctioned. "Oftentimes the box will prove the car owner was at fault and not the car," said Beaver.

California is currently the only state with restrictive rules on the use of car black boxes, where the information can only be used with a car owner's consent or a court order.


http://fox59.trb.com/news/local/eveningnews/ffrcarblackbox,0,7804960.story?coll=wxin-evening-news-3

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrKing
The Following Information was obtained from a News Site here In Indiana. Since I just bought a 2005 Car, I thought I would share this information that was NOT Passed on to me by the dealership.

I do believe that this may indeed infringe on OUR 4th amendment rights. Please read the following report and give me some feedback on this...
thank you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...if I'm driving down the road going 95mph and I cause an accident would I want that information shared that I didn't put my foot on the brake no I don't think so and those are the kinds of people who might try to argue it's an invasion."

There you have it in a nutshell. The only people worried about these things being in there are the ones who are doing something wrong in the first place. I'm not Nancy Law-Abider 100% of the time myself, but the bottom line is that if you're going to break the rules you shouldn't bitch about having gotten caught breaking them.

For what it's worth, I don't believe the Focus is equipped with any EDR's (Event Data Recorders), unless Ford has started installing them in more recent model years. The Owner's Manual has a statement about it somewhere in the first few pages if your car does have one, my mom had an 04 F150 rental and the Owner's Manual made it quite clear that the truck was equipped with data recorders.

Something to remember, at this time anyway, EDR's are only taking short "loops" of information. It's not storing some kind of continuous log, it stores a few seconds of information and then erases, repeats, over and over in a loop. So as in the example above, if you were going 95 on the freeway and slammed into a tractor-trailer without ever having hit the brakes, it would record the few seconds prior to the accident and indicate that you were going 95 mph, the brakes were not activated, along with various other parameters. It's not like you take your car to the dealer and they download a detailed history of how the car has been driven and decline you warranty repairs because of "abuse" based on what they saw.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


I don't get it. What is the problem? Seems to me they would need your permission to read the black box.

It is interesting though. Recently I had my engine check light go on. I was concerned that it had something to do with a modification I'd put on the engine. Not wanting to void my warranty but, wanting warranty work, I went to Auto Zone to see what the code was all about. (Nothing to do with my mod, and fixed that prop by going back to stock gas cap.)
However, if the owner of the vehical had control of the information on that black box, which of course he does, then if he chooses to divulge it is up to him/her. Lets say you were involved in an accident the caused the death of the other driver, or simply speeding, I would think the information would be sealed, unless or until you choose to release it to interested parties.

Yeah but still.

Thats like going to court and incriminating you'reself. You're car is a extention of you'reself in our society.

meh. i got an '01 and i'm in Canada :D lol

I have a 2003 and I have a blackbox under my hood by the firewall with clickity clackity things in there and no one ever asked me any questions when I bought it ...?... [???:)]

I know many of you dont care about this little black box thing....so to help you understand where it could possibly lead to, Please Click the following link.


Thank You.



http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

I can't get that link to work.

Anyway, where would they put this "blackbox" in your car ?

By the EEC module ?

How big is the BB ?
Does it have a hard drive or flash memory ?

Where does the BB get it's power ? the car battery ?

Can it transmit data remotely ? ...

these are all questions I am trying to get answers for myself.

(I do know the link works fine)

Whoa.. that's pretty messed up :/

yeah, i heard about the whole "black box" thing in our cars in the AUTOWEEK magazine.........they had a whole article about it, pretty interesting

The governments trying to control our cars man so that we cant defy them and I have an implant that the government put in my head that makes me crave watermelon.[paranoid][paranoid][paranoid]

Originally posted by ZETEC3
The governments trying to control our cars man so that we cant defy them and I have an implant that the government put in my head that makes me crave watermelon.[paranoid][paranoid][paranoid]

LMAO

so the 2004 focus does have these things?

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf


That link really got me thinking. When I think of all the Nazis types (on both sides of the political spectrum, by the way) in our society and all their political activism, that link's senerio does't seem that far fetched.

Thanks for the link and the discussion.[:)]

That scenerio is totally far fetched alarmist BS. Paranoid hicks.

I'm more liberal than anyone, but the ACLU really gets on my nerves at times.

A lot of important crash data will come of these boxes that will be used to make safer cars.

Americans always go one about gettin' big government off their backs, but they line up pretty fast for federal funds to rebuild their houses, drive on nice smooth federal highways, work for government contractors..etc.etc.

Originally posted by ZETEC3
The governments trying to control our cars man so that we cant defy them and I have an implant that the government put in my head that makes me crave watermelon.[paranoid][paranoid][paranoid]

[thumb] But Watermelons are sooo good. [:)~] [:)~]

Americans always go one about gettin' big government off their backs, but they line up pretty fast for federal funds to rebuild their houses, drive on nice smooth ....

We're just trying to get our money back, or our money's worth from the taxes that we HAVE to pay.

It is the old problem as to how information is handled. You can express information to a Doctor and that information can save your life. The same information on a job application can disqualify you from a job: legal or not.

But concerns of a government trampling on individual rights are certainly not far fetched. In fact, in the history of the world, they are by far the norm.

We have a bumper sticker here in the states which reads: “I love my country but fear my government” One should have a health fear of their government, not a paranoid fear, but a health fear. Govenments have the power to protect one's rights or the power to enslave.

Oh man, does the 00 focus have it?? I don't like this black box idea~

Originally posted by Jake
We're just trying to get our money back, or our money's worth from the taxes that we HAVE to pay.

It is the old problem as to how information is handled. You can express information to a Doctor and that information can save your life. The same information on a job application can disqualify you from a job: legal or not.

But concerns of a government trampling on individual rights are certainly not far fetched. In fact, in the history of the world, they are by far the norm.

We have a bumper sticker here in the states which reads: “I love my country but fear my government” One should have a health fear of their government, not a paranoid fear, but a health fear. Govenments have the power to protect one's rights or the power to enslave.

2000FF-play it safe, drive the car off a cliff.

So guess you would rather not pay taxes? No schools, no police, fire depts, roads, hospitals. -do you even know how government works? And by the way, you are not getting your money back, the U.S. is $1 trillion in national debt because y'all don't pay enough taxes to cover all those wars you like so much.

Please give me one example, post 1776, of government trampling of rights. I guess you don't agree with the big bad government making those laws that make the KKK illegal, or child molestation - big government interference? The only thing stopping corporate america, for now, of using your personal health information for jobs or insurance denial is government laws.

30 years ago you would be arguing against seatbelts, safety glass and disc brakes as government manipulation.

No thanks, I'd rather live in my world than yours.

So guess you would rather not pay taxes? No schools, no police, fire depts, roads, hospitals. -do you even know how government works? And by the way, you are not getting your money back, the U.S. is $1 trillion in national debt because y'all don't pay enough taxes to cover all those wars you like so much.

Please give me one example, post 1776, of government trampling of rights. I guess you don't agree with the big bad government making those laws that make the KKK illegal, or child molestation - big government interference? The only thing stopping corporate america, for now, of using your personal health information for jobs or insurance denial is government laws.

30 years ago you would be arguing against seatbelts, safety glass and disc brakes as government manipulation.

No thanks, I'd rather live in my world than yours.


Why do you have to go to extreams with Jake's statement? It isn't all or nothing. We just want the government to use our money properly. Taxes are necessary. That is a given. But to fund the pork that gets into the spending bill would dramaticly reduce the taxes needed to run the country, and yes, fund the wars that are necessary. Sorry, I wouldn't live in your silly world of outrageous taxes. Canada seems to be the premier socialist society. No thanks.

i do not like the black box idea at all, i dont want to get any speeding or "wreckless driving" tickets in the mail a week after i take my car in for an oil change.

the black box may not be to "control" us but it does infact fit into the "big brother" catgory. i dont much like the idea of being watched, i dont believe many people do. if we do infact have a right to "privacy" then what is the purpose behind this black box. if it were to make "safer" cars does that mean that we as the consumer are expendable assets in the governmentsquest for a "safer" car?

where can i find out more bout the black box. if my car has one i wanna find out if there is some alarm thats gonna sound at the dealer if i rip it out.

Well, First i want to say that the amendments are just about gone. I hate to say it but it is true. DrRay You live way up north right.......Nuff said. The only ones that have a horse in this race are the ones that live in the USA. We Vote...We Pay Taxes...We have a Right to bitch!!. If you do not do any of these things and do not even live here then shut the [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]* up. (Rant)(Rave). Thanks,

I want more peoples feedback on this ........please.....

Originally posted by stay_in_focus
i do not like the black box idea at all, i don't want to get any speeding or "reckless driving" tickets in the mail a week after i take my car in for an oil change.

the black box may not be to "control" us but it does in fact fit into the "big brother" category. i don't much like the idea of being watched, i don't believe many people do. if we do in fact have a right to "privacy" then what is the purpose behind this black box. if it were to make "safer" cars does that mean that we as the consumer are expendable assets in the governments quest for a "safer" car?

where can i find out more bout the black box. if my car has one i wanna find out if there is some alarm thats gonna sound at the dealer if i rip it out.

there is no need to worry, if you take your car in for a oil change, unless you do 100 MPH right into the dealer you have nothing to worry about, (unless you drive a class7 or class8 truck, more on this later!)
the so called black box is the control module for the air bag system and it only holds the 5 seconds of data prior to impact.
the purpose of recording this data was originally for improving the safety of cars and trucks. the manufactures, and safety institutes use the data from crashes and the remains of crashed cars to determine what happened and if there is any weak spots or dangers with the car involved. for example, they see how fast the car was going at impact, what the damage was to the car, what the injuries were to the occupants, they then use the data to build a data base that can point to a problem area.
now this collecting of data became a issue when police learned of the recording of crash data and the fact that it could be used to confirm what they already knew happened, and that cold hard data is more convincing than a persons interpretation of what happened, and they started subpoenaing the data to prosecute drunk drivers, reckless drivers, ect....

remember that it is only five seconds of data, it is only usefully to big brother if you cause a crash breaking the law, so the average Joe has nothing to worry about, besides they don't have to get the data from the black box.
modern cars and pick ups have electronic speedometers that in a major impact, will be stopped at the speed you were going at impact! (I am a fire fighter I know!)

now for the big trucks, the ECM's in class7 and 8 trucks record key data and keep a log with the exact time for "incidents" like speeding, severe brake applications, how you drive,etc... and the guy who changes the oil can look it right up with the standard diagnostic software
(I work on trucks as my main job)
so the only way the info in the "black box" can be used against you, is if you are involved in a accident and the police think you caused it.
and they do use it, a man was convicted using the data from the air bag module in the GM vehicle he was driving, he had crashed into a car backing out of a drive way on a residential street, he was doing 95mph three seconds from impact when he hit is brakes, he impacted the car at 70 something mph killing the two teenage girls in the car he hit. this was on a residential street with a 30mph speed limit.
even without the data he would have been convicted.

i do not like the black box idea at all, i dont want to get any speeding or "wreckless driving" tickets in the mail a week after i take my car in for an oil change

That is just plain silly. That would mean that the guy changing your oil would hook the car up to the computer, and call the cops on you. Not happening. paranoia at its best.

Man, talk about conspiracy theories. I seriously doubt either faction of the gov't is interested in a "Big Brother" approach to our daily driving experience. I can only imagine the $ that would need to be spent in order to implement such a program - all cars equipped; check in stations; man power; etc. It just won't happen. My gut tells me a black box is more in line w/ helping auto manufacturers determine whether or not a driver is in line for a warranty claim or helping the police investigate an accident.

We should probably spend more time worrying about our hair.

And BTW vanace... we damn sure pay enough taxes. You wanna give away more than 40% of your income? Have at it.

That really makes me mad they are probably going to put cameras in all of our cars soon so they can record exactly what we are dooing.

For someone to look at the blackbox, you have to be doing something like getting a ticket or wreck your car. It is used as an after-the-fact recorder of events. I don't have a problem with that.

On the other hand, I love how Vanace randomly throws in the idea that since 1776 the government hasn't trampled on individual rights. They do it all the time. They did it in the 60's monitoring civil rights and anti-Vietnam protestors, under the guise that they were un-American. Today they do it by regulating money in politics, which is speech, under the guise of campaign finance reform. The list could go on. But a black box recorder isn't one of them.

Driving is a privledge, not a right. You show me where in the Constitution that driving is a right and I will buy you a six pack.

Please give me one example, post 1776, of government trampling of rights.

In 1798, a mere 22 years after the founding of America, four laws were enacted which limited the personal freedoms of speech and personal association. Together they were called the Alien and Sedition Acts. Fortunately a Republican, Thomas Jefferson was elected a few years later and the laws were struck down as unconstitutional.

Look, you obviously have some issues with America. Issues, I fear, that will be unmitigated until America, stops being America, and joins in the socialism of Europe and Canada.
I fear this may happen but hope that it doesn’t.

IMO, most Americans believe in limited government and local control. Many are skeptical of large government programs because they are often run inefficiently: not because we don’t care about the welfare of our fellow citizens. Most Americans believe that individual initiative and market forces provide solutions to sundry human needs, even in the area of social programs.
Government certainly has a role to play and it is an important role. The Federal Government provides for the national defense, it must control crime and this involves keeping business practices ethical. Furthermore, there is certainly economic and social value in the national government being the overseer of trade standards amoung the states-providing a national currency for example. I really don’t have a problem with government as you assume, but do believe that, in most instances, a government that governs least governs best.

Certainly a healthy fear of the power of government is a good thing! Government, after all, has most of the guns. In 1968 at Ohio State University, four student demonstrators were gunned down by National Guardsmen.
But honestly, the most horrific abuses of government power clearly happen within socialistic regimes. Last century socialistic regimes killed over 100 million of their own citizens.
I assume you’ve heard of Stalin and the Bolsheviks, Hitler and the Nazis, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge; socialistic regimes all. Tell the survivors of those regimes that they shouldn’t be concerned of governmental abuse of power.

I'm hardly crying, "the sky is falling" because of the Black Box. It has the potential to be useful (so does the splitting of the atom ) but history tells us that citizens should be prudent with the powers they give to their govenments.

It obviously takes brains to drive a Focus. Well said Jake.

And BTW vanace... we damn sure pay enough taxes. You wanna give away more than 40% of your income? Have at it.

I think you misread my post. I was quoting someone... the last paragraph is the only one on my thoughts

I stand corrected. Please accept my apology. While I'm thrilled w/ the recent re-election of GWB, I guess I'm still a little put out by some of the Liberal talk that's been flooding every avenue of the media lately. And I can't possibly talk enough smack about the ACLU - what a joke. I should have known by your sig that you were on the RIGHT side of things.

NP... it is irritating how the liberals are such cry babies and are still trying to count votes. You think that is bad, the gov. race in washington state is still to close to call. The republican canidate is ahead by 47 votes!! Of course that isn't good to the liberal canidate. She is really pushing for a hand count of selected counties chosen by her!! Sick stuff

Originally posted by Jake
In 1798, ...

Look, you obviously have some issues with America. Issues, I fear, that will be unmitigated until America, stops being America, and joins in the socialism of Europe and Canada.
I fear this may happen but hope that it doesn’t.

IMO, most Americans believe in limited government and local control. Many are skeptical of large government programs because they are often run inefficiently: not because we don’t care about the welfare of our fellow citizens. Most Americans believe that individual initiative and market forces provide solutions to sundry human needs, even in the area of social programs.
....

Certainly a healthy fear of the power of government is a good thing! Government, after all, has most of the guns. ..



Wow..two incidences in 200 years, and one didn't even happen.

4 students killed at Penn State, how about the thousands of americans killed every year by handguns? Al-queda a spit in the bucket compared to what your own rednecks are doing to each other every year.

Afraid of socialism? Why? Afraid that the US standard of living will go up from #17 on the list?

Jake, you need to live outside the US for a while, stop watching FOX TV, or at least read a few books. I suspect, like most redneck right-wingers, you've never actually even been to other countries.

Yes, I have issues. I lived in US for four years. Hated it.

(BTW, your car was designed in Germany)

On the black box.....

In its basic form (5 sec data recorder) I have no problem with it. My concern is that we will get complacent to the box being in our cars and when that happens things can be done to it with out our knowlege through newer upgraded versions in later model cars. Today its only for post-accident purposes but tommorrow?

I have already heard about cameras that snap pictures of you when you speed and send tickets to you though the mail. Who is to stop the gov from one day mandating that these boxes send out your info via a cellular singnal or what have you when ever you break the posted speed limit?

Crazy theories? perhaps, but the technology is there for these things to happen. To those of you who think that the gov will not spend the money to implement these systems. Alabama just spent millions over about two years on those huge traffic information signs (the ones that post accident info. etc.). Imagine what they would be willing to spend on a system that will mean less cops on the street on more money in their pockets.

Originally posted by zslaton

Driving is a privledge, not a right. You show me where in the Constitution that driving is a right and I will buy you a six pack.

Amen.

stop watching FOX TV


at least we can watch FOX news. Your government won't let you. How can you comment about FOX news when your not allowed to see it by your government? What are they afraid of? The truth?

found out about the "black box" from a tech at the dealer where i bought my car. it is actually the main computer that records everything. swap out main computer and the problem is fixed. :)

The idea that it is an infringement on our personal space would be the same thing that a childmelester might say if the FBI was seizing his computer. If you do something that is wrong you have to face the consiquences. It isn't like if your speeding that the cops are going to pull out a device to read it. However, if your car is under warrenty and the dealership expects abuse to the vehicle caused the broken part then they do have ways of checking your driving habits on the vehicle and if you do drive it abusively then the repairs won't be done through warrenty but out of your pocket.

To my knowledge, there are no data recorders on our focus'. Other countries, maybe, but there are no parts, modules or otherwise, that do this right now. GM had several lawsuits over these things. I remember one guy that bought a new Vette and went ballistic over this when he found out there was one on his car. If i remember correctly, he sued them and had it removed. I may be wrong on that, but i think thats how it went.

I'd have no problem with data recorders if they are used to, say, provide objective evidence of a serious vehicle-based crime. Say that's one end of the spectrum, and the other is a warning chime whenever I exceed the posted speed limit, with a 10 second warning before I'm immediatly flaged by real-time GPS location to the local and state police.

One, I have no problem with. The information could only be released when there is a serious legal need. When it starts creeping towards the Big Brother end, I start to have a big problem with it. Its my property and, to a point, I expect certain freedoms in its operation. Call me a libertarian, it's close enough. *shrug*

I figure its just a matter of time until they start with GPS speed trackers. Look at all of the other methods for ticketing drivers through the mail like red-light cameras and radar cameras that start out being posted in school zones so that anyone who speaks out against them can be labeled as uncaring for the saftey of children, then they're posted near school zones, and then kind of near school zones, and then they're everywhere and if you get a ticket from them you can't contest it. In the same way, they'll get a group like MADD to say that GPS speed tracking is paramount to traffic saftey and to drown out opposition to the program by making them out to be [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]s for opposing something they support (just like they slammed the report that came out recently about talking on a cell phone while driving is more dangerous than being at the legal BAC limit of .08%.)

The bottom line is, traffic laws are written with revenue generation as their primary goal and traffic saftey as an afterthought. Why else do you hear about someone going to jail on their 12th DUI charge...simply put, its more profitable to the system to fine a repeat offender many times than to revoke their license after the second or third offense. Once they figure out a way to bypass reasonable search and seizure and innocent until proven guilty laws, every new car will come equipped with a GPS module that will log your speed and then report back to the DMV, and you'll get a stack of tickets in the mail for each time you went 6+ MPH over the speed limit.

Wow.. thankfully it hasn't gone completely political- not that some people haven't tried. For those who know my alignments in previous posts, I'll do my best not to do so myself.

We have two video monitored stop lights in Germantown TN. If you run these lights, you will get a ticket in the mail with a picture of your car on the wrong side of the line, and the light pictured clearly red. The ticket costs $50, does not go on your record, and is not reported to your insurance. Some people have complained that someone else might be driving the car registered to you when the offense was committed.

I have no problem with this, and I don't have a problem with the black box either so long as it's used by manufacturers to improve vehicle safety. However, there's a lot of things that haven't been mentioned to be recorded by this box that have more to do with manufacturer control of safety than speed, brakes, seatbelts, etc. There's no mention of crumple zone data or impact location sensing. The information in the black box could only be valuable for the purpose of improving safety if the manufacturer were to buy back the wrecked vehicle so that these physical evidences could be compared with the data from the box. I sincerely hope that they are doing exactly that to improve safety.

Grrrr.... the politics pimple needs to be popped.

I'm not horribly paranoid about possible government intrusion into privacy here because judges are people with fears like the rest of us. For example, Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys punk rock band was prosecuted in CA under a new law pushed through by Diane Fienstien in 1985 called "Distribution of Harmful Matter to Minors" for an insert of an H.R. Gieger poster in an LP. The law was loosely written so that even the man who printed the records, or someone who brought coffee to his office could be prosecuted and sentenced for up to 15 years in prison. This law was passed through legislation by selling the righteous cause of "saving the children" from the influence of pornography. The Dead Kennedys were not an explicit sex lyric band on a major label, but an independent label, anti-government lyric band. In the end, the judge dismissed all charges because he said he had seen enough twisting and bending of the constitution for political gain.

Politicians will always put a righteous spin on their actions, and the laws or events that they want to make happen. It's up to the public and the judicial system to stop them in their tracks when their actions are closer to that of Oliver Cromwell than Martin Luther King. If there is a breakdown of this system, then we will be the losers. My point is this: regardless of party alignment, please be most highly critical of your party before being critical of the other party. We cannot make an intelligent, informed decision if we only see one half of an argument. I hope that everyone starts to pay more attention to politics with an even disposition, and possibly prevent this period of history as being labelled "The Decline of the Pax Americana".