10) You'll get a charge out of it.
9) Great if your round trip is less than 80 miles.
8) Can substitute for a golf cart.
7) Your old mechanic will love you forever.
6) Ben Franklins autograph on glove box door.
5) Screw Exxon.
4) So quiet, you can hear your wife and kids better.
3) It comes with batteries.
2) The president of Ford's butt is on the line.
1) David Letterman will have you on his show to help sales.

I would LOVE to get the electric. And would, it does not have enough range though. My commute is 75-80 miles and sometimes stop and go. Nowhere to plug in at work. I'm boned on the electric which is really what I originally wanted.

The president of Ford said they still have not set the price yet.

I bet it ain't cheap.

itll probally have the gas backup like the shitrolet volt

No gas backup acc'd to fomoco. Pure electric like the leaf

No gas backup acc'd to fomoco. Pure electric like the leaf
On Letterman last night Mulally said that they will have an all-electric, a hybrid, & a plug-in hybrid so that people can buy whatever works best for them. He didn't say when those would be released, or if they would all be in the Focus family.

I expect the price to be around $37k. Nissan recently raised the price on the Leaf, and Ford is pushing the Focus as being superior to it. It won't get considered at the Volt's price point. I am considering the eFocus, but at that price, it's not worth it.

4) So quiet, you can hear your wife and kids better.
That might not be considered an advantage for some people :P

That might not be considered an advantage for some people :P
Yes, humor sometimes involves being facetious! That's why it's funny.

On Letterman last night Mulally said that they will have an all-electric, a hybrid, & a plug-in hybrid so that people can buy whatever works best for them. He didn't say when those would be released, or if they would all be in the Focus family.

I expect the price to be around $37k. Nissan recently raised the price on the Leaf, and Ford is pushing the Focus as being superior to it. It won't get considered at the Volt's price point. I am considering the eFocus, but at that price, it's not worth it.

There is a concept car that is built on the Focus platform that is in the works for the hybrid. A little digging on google will yield the name of that one, slated for release sometime in 2012.

I am anticipating a price of $34K for the Focus Electric but it could push into $35K territory. Ford will get the maximum price out of it possible until the $7500 Fed rebate dries up.

It was the electric Focus which originally got me looking at Focus at all. I had been considering a Nissan Leaf for my commute and then saw that Ford was going to be releasing an electric Focus in late 2011.

However, at this point I think it will be a VERY soft launch. I am in one of the launch cities but dealers know nothing and you can't yet pre-order the car. The Focus electric is a two step build. The car is basically "built" at the regular Focus plant without the power train, and then it is sent to another factory where a sub-contractor will finish building it with the electric drive system. This has a lot of drawbacks to a dedicated line just for the assembly of the car and I expect production to be in the hundreds for the first few months and maybe as few as 5,000 cars shipped in all of 2012.... which means waiting, up to a year from the time you order, to get your vehicle.

The plusses obviously are that it will never use a drop of gas in its life, overall maintenance costs for electrics should be exceedingly low (Hyundai recently did a 300K duty cycle test on their Li-Ion batts for the Sonata hybrid and they only lost 5% efficiency after that many simulated miles) and electricity is still very cheap (cheaper for me, I've got a 7.0 kWh solar rig on my house).

If I could find an outlet to reliably juice it up every day at the office while I am working, I would not hesitate to get it. Sadly it is on the ragged edge of the range I need so it is not going to work out.

Will probably buy a gas focus with the hope of trading it towards an electric when they can increase the range another 20%, which will probably be in another few years.

One other thing worth pointing out is that to rapid charge the Focus Electric you will need a $1500 charger installed in your home, which might also require upgrade of your electrical box, cooperation from your local power company, etc.

Lets do some quick math on actual cost per mile;

Electric costs at least $10K more than Gas car. Lets say electricity is free.

To go 12,000 per year with Gas car lets estimate average 32mpg at $3.75gal.
That's $1406.25 for gas.

Divide 10,000 by 1406 and you wait over 7 years until you break even.

Either gas prices have to go way up, or Electric car prices have to come way down. The math does not work for me, yet.

I could only buy an electric car if it came with a CD that played engine noises.

Lets do some quick math on actual cost per mile;

Electric costs at least $10K more than Gas car. Lets say electricity is free.

To go 12,000 per year with Gas car lets estimate average 32mpg at $3.75gal.
That's $1406.25 for gas.

Divide 10,000 by 1406 and you wait over 7 years until you break even.

Either gas prices have to go way up, or Electric car prices have to come way down. The math does not work for me, yet.

You are right. However, a 7 year break even is not really bad. Additionally with the $7500 electric vehicles rebate on your taxes (assuming you pay enough taxes to get the full amount back) makes the break even much quicker than that.

A lot of people who are looking at electric vehicles are banking on gas prices going up over the next five years.

Also, people are purchasing electrics for non economic reasons, such as showing support for the industry and technology, reducing their carbon footprint, reducing reliance on foreign oil, just to name a few.

I could only buy an electric car if it came with a CD that played engine noises.

Actually they are letting Facebook fans vote on the "engine" noise that the car will make at low speeds to alert pedestrians;

http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1063826_ford-polls-facebook-fans-for-2012-focus-electric-noises-video

What's funny is that in the facebook comments numerous people say "no noise preferred". They don't seem to understand that noise being made at speeds under about 20 mph are mandated by federal law, to prevent the likelihood of someone who is visually impaired being run down by the stealthy (and virtually silent) electric auto.

Actually they are letting Facebook fans vote on the "engine" noise that the car will make at low speeds to alert pedestrians;

http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1063826_ford-polls-facebook-fans-for-2012-focus-electric-noises-video

What's funny is that in the facebook comments numerous people say "no noise preferred". They don't seem to understand that noise being made at speeds under about 20 mph are mandated by federal law, to prevent the likelihood of someone who is visually impaired being run down by the stealthy (and virtually silent) electric auto.

Is it wrong that the idea of a 2014 Ford Keller-Killer makes me laugh?

Is it wrong that the idea of a 2014 Ford Keller-Killer makes me laugh?

yes, you are evil.

[driving]

[poke]

Also, people are purchasing electrics for non economic reasons
Yes, but only wealthy Hollywood types.

I love this planet as much as the next guy, electrics will take over when they are cheaper to own and operate. Or when the Gov says "no more gas".

Yes, but only wealthy Hollywood types.

I love this planet as much as the next guy, electrics will take over when they are cheaper to own and operate. Or when the Gov says "no more gas".

I appreciate your opinion, but that's simply not the case. The Nissan Leaf has a $32,000 sticker price and you can go to their owner forums and find plenty of regular working class people who have purchased them, again, for a variety of reasons both economic and non economic.

My wife and I are not "rich hollywood types" (she's a dentist and I'm an engineer) and we still spent a sizable chunk of cash on our solar installation... we view it both as a hedge against inflating electric rates, as well as a way to be somewhat more responsible (we don't want them building more and more coal plants in our area to meet electric demands that keep going up).

Moved to "Ford Focus Electric Car"

I am anticipating a price of $34K for the Focus Electric but it could push into $35K territory. Ford will get the maximum price out of it possible until the $7500 Fed rebate dries up.
...
The Nissan Leaf has a $32,000 sticker price
Sticker on the Leaf is being upped (http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2012/2012-nissan-leaf-gets-price-hike-more-equipment.html) to $36,050. I just don't see Ford trying to sell the Focus for less than that.


However, at this point I think it will be a VERY soft launch. I am in one of the launch cities but dealers know nothing and you can't yet pre-order the car.
I agree about the soft launch. Dealerships around here haven't even heard of it. I've also seen reports that Ford isn't really interested in competing in the EV market (they just want to keep up with the technology so that if sentiment changes, they won't have to play catch-up), so sales numbers won't be high.

The plusses obviously are that it will never use a drop of gas in its life, overall maintenance costs for electrics should be exceedingly low (Hyundai recently did a 300K duty cycle test on their Li-Ion batts for the Sonata hybrid and they only lost 5% efficiency after that many simulated miles) and electricity is still very cheap (cheaper for me, I've got a 7.0 kWh solar rig on my house).
...
One other thing worth pointing out is that to rapid charge the Focus Electric you will need a $1500 charger installed in your home, which might also require upgrade of your electrical box, cooperation from your local power company, etc.
Those Hyundai numbers don't sound right, unless they are testing something different. For example, fast-charging the Leaf will drop its batteries to 80% after ~5 yrs (that's considered 'failure'). Slow charging doesn't seem to have the same effect.

I've worked a few numbers, & 'fueling' the eFocus will be ~1/3 the price of gasoline. Also, I expect gas to continue to rise. When I bought my car 10 yr ago, everyone was shocked how gas spiked to $1.75/gal. It will be the same thing with $4/gal--in 10 yr we'll look back and reminisce.

My commute is only 13 mi round-trip, so I have no range anxiety issues. I don't even plan on bothering with the charging station--plugging it in overnight once a week will be plenty.


Actually they are letting Facebook fans vote on the "engine" noise that the car will make at low speeds to alert pedestrians;

http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1063826_ford-polls-facebook-fans-for-2012-focus-electric-noises-video

What's funny is that in the facebook comments numerous people say "no noise preferred". They don't seem to understand that noise being made at speeds under about 20 mph are mandated by federal law, to prevent the likelihood of someone who is visually impaired being run down by the stealthy (and virtually silent) electric auto.
I don't agree with the law. There is a fundamental safety issue with vision-impaired people walking into the street, and noisy cars don't fix that. Also, they don't have an option for the car simply yelling "Get out of the way!" which is what I'd vote for.

I could only buy an electric car if it came with a CD that played engine noises.

this made me laugh pretty good hahahaha

I appreciate your opinion, but that's simply not the case.
Tree huggers come in many flavors, I hug trees too, but we are not the majority.

If it's not the case, why do we still have 99% gas powered cars when electrics are available.
They have been around since the turn of the century. Cost is a factor. And you think that owning
an electric won't burn a drop of gas. How do we generate electricty in this country. We burn mostly
coal, then oil and natural gas, and nuclear power plants.

Like I said, electrics will take over when they cost less to own than gas powered cars.

Sticker on the Leaf is being upped (http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2012/2012-nissan-leaf-gets-price-hike-more-equipment.html) to $36,050. I just don't see Ford trying to sell the Focus for less than that.

probably correct, "competitive" probably puts it into the same $36-$37K range. Still not bad at all though if you can get the $7500 federal rebate.


I've also seen reports that Ford isn't really interested in competing in the EV market (they just want to keep up with the technology so that if sentiment changes, they won't have to play catch-up), so sales numbers won't be high.

If Ford wasn't serious about it they wouldn't have the CEO going on Letterman and pimping the crap out of it (he had Letterman drive it around the set). They are intentionally building demand and talking about how they are going to have a whole range of cars going from hybrid to full electric.


Those Hyundai numbers don't sound right, unless they are testing something different. For example, fast-charging the Leaf will drop its batteries to 80% after ~5 yrs (that's considered 'failure'). Slow charging doesn't seem to have the same effect.

This is from the Popular Mechanics article on the Hybrid Sonata;

Hyundai engineers say that the lithium-polymer batteries can tolerate tens of thousands of charge cycles, without having to use a liquid-cooling system. According to W. C Yang, president of the Hyundai R&D Center, the Sonata Hybrid batteries should supply "300,000 miles with less than 10 percent reduction in performance … that's purely from an engineering point of view, not a warranty point of view." Hyundai currently offers a 100,000 mile/10 year powertrain warranty in the U.S. market.

Read more: Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Specs - Review and Test Drive of 2011 Sonata Hybrid - Popular Mechanics

So, it sounds like the advantage of the liquid thermal management might be better long term battery life. Also, like the Sonata, the battery pack in the Focus will be built from cells that can be individually replaced rather than having to scrap the whole $10,000 battery pack if one component craps out prematurely.

I've worked a few numbers, & 'fueling' the eFocus will be ~1/3 the price of gasoline. Also, I expect gas to continue to rise. When I bought my car 10 yr ago, everyone was shocked how gas spiked to $1.75/gal. It will be the same thing with $4/gal--in 10 yr we'll look back and reminisce.

I am more or less banking on $4-$5 gas at various times over the next few years with it eventually costing over $5 a gallon. Even if the US taps all of the supplies we have (a foolish move in my opinion) all that will happen is that OPEC slows production to keep oil prices roughly where they are now. They aren't going back to $20 a barrel oil, ever!

My commute is only 13 mi round-trip, so I have no range anxiety issues. I don't even plan on bothering with the charging station--plugging it in overnight once a week will be plenty.

The real world range will likely be about 75-80 miles so you will likely have to charge it at least a couple of times a week, but with such a short trek you are likely right about being able to charge it with just 110V AC.


I don't agree with the law. There is a fundamental safety issue with vision-impaired people walking into the street, and noisy cars don't fix that. Also, they don't have an option for the car simply yelling "Get out of the way!" which is what I'd vote for.

Well, that effectively IS what the car is doing by playing whatever noise it is going to play at lower speeds to alert animals, old people, children, and of course the sight impaired. I personally don't spend a lot of time condemning the handicapped for trying to get out and live their life, even if it means a "pesky" law about electric cars making noise at lower speeds.

If Ford wasn't serious about it they wouldn't have the CEO going on Letterman and pimping the crap out of it (he had Letterman drive it around the set). They are intentionally building demand and talking about how they are going to have a whole range of cars going from hybrid to full electric.
Not necessarily. There's advertising, and there's PR. People believe Toyota is 'green' because they make the Prius. I don't know if Mulally's appearance was to sell the eFocus, or to improve the appearance of the Ford brand. It doesn't make a lot of sense to pull that kind of move for advertising so long before it can even be ordered & especially since it will only be available in 20 cities. On the other hand, they may be positioning it as a halo vehicle.

As for the Sonata--the work batteries do in a hybrid is different than a in a full-blown EV. Considering that hybrids have been on the market for 10+ yrs & only the Civic hybrid has had battery issues, I have no doubt that factory batteries in a hybrid will last the life of the car. But the load cycles on EVs are different, and I feel it is premature to say that since hybrids don't have issues, then EVs won't either. This is what I meant by results depending on what was being tested.

I do feel that the thermal management system Ford is including is a huge step to improving their lifespan & making range more consistent. I understand the thermal management will also prevent degradation during fast-charging.

The real world range will likely be about 75-80 miles so you will likely have to charge it at least a couple of times a week, but with such a short trek you are likely right about being able to charge it with just 110V AC.
Mulally said it had a range of ~80 mi., which is a step back from their initial estimates of 100 mi. It is very similar to what Nissan did--they quoted 100, but real-world numbers are only up to 80.

My monthly mileage totals only ~550, and I would keep my current car, which I would use for longer trips & at least once a week, regardless (to keep it maintained). So if I did need to leave it at home one day to let it charge, it's not an inconvenience.

Well, that effectively IS what the car is doing by playing whatever noise it is going to play at lower speeds to alert animals, old people, children, and of course the sight impaired. I personally don't spend a lot of time condemning the handicapped for trying to get out and live their life, even if it means a "pesky" law about electric cars making noise at lower speeds.
You miss my point. There is a fundamental safety issue with people & cars occupying the same space. Controls are necessary to mitigate that risk. Of all control methods that could be employed, noise is pretty far down the list of effectiveness. In other words, there are better solutions, and that's why I don't support the law. (Of the four options they have, at least two sound so odd that a person is more likely to wonder "WTF is that?" as they get run over than recognize that it's a car.)

Reason #1: I have another car for long trips.

I hate to say it, but I would personally prefer a more Volt-like system instead of straight electric. The V is driven by electric, but has a gasoline engine to turn a generator when the battery pack runs low. It has a much larger battery pack than the Prius for that reason.

Now, I know everyone is all excited about electric technology, and I'm no different, but I thought I'd remind everyone that our domestic manufacturers had already researched and built diesel electric systems similar to trains which got 70+ mpg in '99. Be excited all you want, but there's a lot of anger in me every time I see a Fusion or Escape with Toyota tech driving it. As Churchill said "You can always count on the United States to do the right thing..... after they have exhausted every other available option."

Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles)

I'd like our domestic manufacturers to lead the world, not follow along like a puppy on a leash.

I appreciate your opinion, but that's simply not the case. The Nissan Leaf has a $32,000 sticker price and you can go to their owner forums and find plenty of regular working class people who have purchased them, again, for a variety of reasons both economic and non economic.

My wife and I are not "rich hollywood types" (she's a dentist and I'm an engineer) and we still spent a sizable chunk of cash on our solar installation... we view it both as a hedge against inflating electric rates, as well as a way to be somewhat more responsible (we don't want them building more and more coal plants in our area to meet electric demands that keep going up).

My parents are in the same boat. Dad is an engineer, mom is in healthcare, and they currently own a Prius and a Volvo...and the Volvo is due to be replaced with the Focus Electric in a couple years. Not for economic reasons, and they're certainly not "rich hollywood types."

I think they'd do solar panels if they planned on retiring here, too.

My parents are in the same boat. Dad is an engineer, mom is in healthcare, and they currently own a Prius and a Volvo...and the Volvo is due to be replaced with the Focus Electric in a couple years. Not for economic reasons, and they're certainly not "rich hollywood types."
So electric cars will out sell gasoline powered cars because of your parents?
[giggle]

So electric cars will out sell gasoline powered cars because of your parents?
[giggle]

I think you mis-read what he said. The point is that there are plenty of people that are (for the first time ever) considering an alternative fuel vehicle, because we now see mainstream manufacturers warming up to the idea.

As gas prices go up, the demand for electric vehicles is only going to increase, however, it will naturally take decades for them to over-take the gasoline powered cars already on the road.

I suspect a very long 10-15 year period in which electric vehicles make up an increasingly large chunk of the vehicle fleet, as infrastructure and battery technology improve.

However, for those that don't want to wait 10-15 years, this years offerings (the Leaf and the Focus) are very interesting, and will meet their needs more or less perfectly.

I'm still campaigning to get someone at my office to consider putting a few charging stations in, if they are willing to do that, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and order a Focus Electric, even if I don't get it until next summer.

Thank you for making my point for me. Gas cars will rule until they cost more.
I never said people won't buy electric cars (for whatever reason).

Some folks don't care about money, they buy with their hearts. That's OK.
Some folks have more money than brains. That's OK too.

The reason we still have gas powered vehicles is becuase they are cheaper.
Most people have more brains than money. And they don't care about the
environment as much as they should. That has a price.

Thank you for making my point for me. Gas cars will rule until they cost more.
I never said people won't buy electric cars (for whatever reason).

Some folks don't care about money, they buy with their hearts. That's OK.
Some folks have more money than brains. That's OK too.

The reason we still have gas powered vehicles is becuase they are cheaper.
Most people have more brains than money. And they don't care about the
environment as much as they should. That has a price.

There are totally valid economic arguments for getting an electric, especially as a commuter or secondary vehicle.

Let's say you average 35mpg with your Focus and gas hovers around $4 a year for the next 10 years (would likely be higher but helps make the point) putting 15K miles per year on the car.

Your total gas cost is going to be $17,142.

In my case, since I make my own electricity (and have a sizable surplus), the cost to fuel the electric car is ZERO.

For most of the country, with electric rates of about $.10 per KWH the cost per month to "fuel" the vehicle to operate for 1250 miles would be around $50-$60, meaning that the cost to fuel the electric focus for 10 years would be about $6000 (for arguments sake we'll say that gas and electric will both stay about the same over 10 years even though in all likelihood gas prices will outpace electricity prices as far as "inflation" goes).

So, the electric car costs $11K less over a 10 year run... and that does not factor in the overall lower maintenance costs (no oil changes, no brake pads, etc).

Even if you paid $6K more for the same spec Focus as an electric (after federal subsidies), how is it that you have made a poor financial decision?

Will the batteries on the electric eventually need to be replaced? Yes. Will they be expensive? Yes. Will they require replacement in 150K miles? Rather unlikely. We all heard horror stories about $3000 battery replacements on the Prius and other Hybrids, yet in reality, getting a re-conditioned battery put into a Prius costs about half of that. It is highly likely that re-conditioned or used batteries will be available for many electrics including the electric Focus and the costs will go down over time.

This is sort of like a chicken and egg argument. You are arguing that the economics are what are dictating why electrics will be slow to take off. I would argue that the bigger challenge to electrics is NOT economics, but range anxiety, charging infrastructure, etc.

However, since I already produce plenty of power, I basically would be making my own fuel for the car, which would dramatically improve the financials for me, and many thousands of other homeowners with solar, wind or geothermal power generation.

I don't have to justify the price I pay. I just don't want to buy Arab oil. I pay 9.5 cents/kWh right now. If you look in Wikipedia, you'll find that a gal. of gas is equal to 36.6 kWh. So, for electricity, I'm paying the equivalent of $3.48 a gal. Also, The Focus EV is suppose to go 100 mi on a 23 kWh battery. That's 100 mi / 23 kWh = 4.348 mi / kWh. Multiply that times the kWh in a gal of gas and you get 159.
So if I did that math right, the Focus EV will get the equivalent of 159 mpg.
Or, another way to look at it is for a fully depleted battery, it will cost me
23 kWh X .095 = $2.19 to go another 100 miles. Or $0.0219 per mile.
That's pretty cost effective.
Other benefits of the electric:
1) No Oil changes.
2) With regenerative braking, the brake pads should last almost forever.

The way the government has been printing dollars and devaluing the currency, gas can only go up in the long run. Hopefully electricity rates will stay a lot lower than gasoline. Sooner or later the government will catch on and start charging road tax on electric vehicles. Electrics have a free ride right now when it comes to road tax.

I dont blame u for not wanting to buy arab oil but most of the oil used in the usa comes from canada, mexico and venezula. Only a vry small percentage comes from The near east anymore.

The eFocus will get ~80 mi/full charge. Mulally quoted this number on Letterman. The 100 mi is overly optimistic; the Leaf ran into the same problem.

Depending on driving style, I expect the brake pads to last ~60k mi. Regenerative braking is about the same as simply coasting more in a traditional car.

The battery size is 23 kWh, but it takes more than that to 'fill.' Electrical systems are not perfectly efficient, and the thermal management system is active during charging. It is better to expect to consume 27-29 kWh per full charge. All-in-all, it'll be closer to 100 mpge, or ~1/3 the cost of using gasoline.

The eFocus will get ~80 mi/full charge. Mulally quoted this number on Letterman. The 100 mi is overly optimistic; the Leaf ran into the same problem.

Depending on driving style, I expect the brake pads to last ~60k mi. Regenerative braking is about the same as simply coasting more in a traditional car.

The battery size is 23 kWh, but it takes more than that to 'fill.' Electrical systems are not perfectly efficient, and the thermal management system is active during charging. It is better to expect to consume 27-29 kWh per full charge. All-in-all, it'll be closer to 100 mpge, or ~1/3 the cost of using gasoline.

I don't expect to get 100 miles of range out of the Focus, but if the real world range is lower than the Leaf than it is a non starter for me. Depending on traffic my return commute in the evenings can be as much as 45 miles. I might have the option of topping off the battery a bit at work as they are considering putting in either electrical charging stations or outlets in the garage.

Even if I can get enough range to do my commute with a bit of charging at work I have to consider that over time the batteries will degrade. In five years we will be lucky if the batteries are 85% as efficient as they were when new, which means that if the real world range of the Focus is around 75 miles in mixed commuting after five years the range will be down to about 63.5 miles which makes it a little more dicey for me.

I do expect the thermal management to very slightly improve the battery degrading over time, but like any other battery it will certainly happen.

At the end of the day I want the electric and will make some sacrifices to get it, but if the range is too low (or they scrap the plan to put charging spots up at my work) then I will have to get another gas burner until vehicle range improves.

Love being here.