Since day one my SVT ZX5 (03, Pitch Black) has been a little sensitive to rain. Primarily when I try to stop. Even in the lightest of rain, I press upon the brake pedal only to find an extremely long delay before the brakes actually begin to feel as though they are grabbing (well it feels like a long delay when I'm exiting the highway at 75 mph).

So, I was aware of this idiosyncracy and, anytime it rained, I would give myself a smidge more room when I was approaching traffic, etc. I was familiar with this trait from my days of Honda CB750F (motorcycle) ownership - it just happens sometimes when the brakes get a little too wet.

Anyway, two days ago I'm heading to work at 5 am in a pounding rain when I find that, while approaching a large cluster of cars on the highway (I'm going 75 and they are ALL going below 50 somewhere) I hit the brakes but got nothing. The pedal was firm and after about 1 FULL SECOND I began to feel the brakes grab - but not very strong. When I finally slowed completely, they again felt regular. Until I reached my exit 1 minute later - then I went through it all again. Luckily, I expected it and gave myself a massive buffer between me and EVERYONE ELSE.

So, what happened? Water = Brakes = Slip = Heat = Grip = Repeat...

I figure the pads were floating on the thin layer of water on the rotor, but I wonder:
A: Why?
B: Why has the supposed SVT "specialist" at the normally ok Ford dealer swore on his mother's grave that this has never happened to him and he has never heard of such an incident or condition?
C: Will I need to purchase slotted rotors or some such thing to rectify this?
D: Has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks for your input.

hmm don't think my brakes are like yours...

I have noticed this too. I think it's a compination of a few things.

1) small film of water on the rotors
2) cold brakes and rotors
3) brake pads that are performance orintiated, i.e. works better when at higher temps.

As long as your aware of the porblem and make sure your carefull in the rain you should be ok. You could try riding the brakes for a breif moment in the rain every few miles. Sloted brakes could help with the problem but I have not talked to anyone that has had tryed to solve this problem that way.

I've never experienced anything like what you described (yet). I hope not to.

Originally posted by revamp
I've never experiences anything like what you described (yet). I hope not to.

I have never had this problem...usually just the first stop I make in the rain the brakes are a little weak but no delays, after that they seem to be fine, I would take it to the dealership, thats outright dangerous

I haven't experienced that at all...weird...i'll start checkin out for it today though...Ivan's leftovers are gonna vist this area hard today.

i have never had that..but then again it rains like 2 days a year in LA

No rain problems here.
In fact, in an AutoCross this spring....in a MAJOR downpour....
I got 2nd place overall by .074 sec.

This is by far the "stickiest" car I've ever driven in the rain.
I left the TC on, and "let er do er stuff".
Braking wise was nothing short of phenomenal in the rain.
Oh, Here's the thread (http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=178065).

Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd get that thing into the Dealer.
Something doesn't sound right.

Cool. Pretty slick, WD40...
Thank you everyone for your input - I think I may need to just take it to the dealer. I called them and they said, "You don't need an appointment - just bring it in when it's raining and we'll have a technician drive it while you ride along."
UH, OK...So they want me to wait until it rains - I can do that - and then endanger one of their employee's lives as well as my own because he won't be familiar with the behavior of the brakes. I'll probably have them get it up on a lift and have them look at it first and see if there are any obvious defects.

Going 75 in the rain and expecting the car to stop on a dime is bit much I would say. Are you sure they are not working or is it that your tires are slipping when you apply the brakes hard.

Originally posted by biketcher
Cool. Pretty slick, WD40...
Thank you everyone for your input - I think I may need to just take it to the dealer. I called them and they said, "You don't need an appointment - just bring it in when it's raining and we'll have a technician drive it while you ride along."
UH, OK...So they want me to wait until it rains - I can do that - and then endanger one of their employee's lives as well as my own because he won't be familiar with the behavior of the brakes. I'll probably have them get it up on a lift and have them look at it first and see if there are any obvious defects.

lol..thats pretty dumb, especially with brakes

Yeah, I've had this problem as well. I've noticed that the first time you pump the brakes, you get nothing. Give it a nice quick second pump and they work finally. This happens to me only when I am cruising in the rain on the highway. Around town, the brakes never get a chance to have this happen. This was something that concerned me (obviously), but I always forget to take it in.

Brakes are always nothing short of perfect for me. Something definately doesnt sound right. Do you notice any other brake-quirks in the dry? Are the pads due for replacement soon?

No rain problems with me. Something is defenately wrong.

Originally posted by biketcher
Cool. Pretty slick, WD40...
Thank you everyone for your input - I think I may need to just take it to the dealer. I called them and they said, "You don't need an appointment - just bring it in when it's raining and we'll have a technician drive it while you ride along."
UH, OK...So they want me to wait until it rains - I can do that - and then endanger one of their employee's lives as well as my own because he won't be familiar with the behavior of the brakes. I'll probably have them get it up on a lift and have them look at it first and see if there are any obvious defects.

Unless it is something obvious, this^^ is the only way to troubleshoot it. You need to recreate the problem. If you can't do that there is no problem.

I never had that issue when I had my SVT.

had one - Yeah, 75 was a bit much in pouding rain, but that was only one of the times that the brakes exhibited this behavior - I was doing 55, maybe 60, the next few times.
I had my tires replaced two days before this incident occurred and noticed (on the day of replacement) that the brakes pulsed a bit, but that this got better by the time I got home from the dealer. I also noticed that the front brakes had a film on them (like tire snot - you know, for installing tires on rims and setting the bead), but this was gone by the next day. I suppose I left these out during my initial description, oops.
As far as whether the tires slipped or hydroplaned - no, they did not. Nor did I hit a puddle. I was going around a fairly tight corner (tight considering it was on the highway and it was raining...) and the car cornered very nicely with nary a slip - credit the new tires. Neither my ABS nor my Traction Control light come on. I actually can't recall whether I have an ABS light on the dash, nonetheless, no lights illuminated on the dash.
Anyway, I guess if I wasn't driving like a stroke I would not have encountered this problem, huh?

i have noticed a brake problem on cold brakes and cold engine with either de frost or a/c on. my guess is my engine vacume is to low to assist the power brakes .

I was wonder when someone was going to bring this up. I have the same problem in the rain. Can't wait to find out how they will be in the snow.

I would like to just say one thing. No matter the conditions brakes should work, you need to take the car to the dealership explain your problem because its a SAFTY issue and they need to replace the PAD's and BLEED the brakes.

It sounds like your brake slider pins aren't contracting correctly or are sticking. It seems like the brake pads are not seated properly on the rotor allowing a thin film of water to gather on the surface. Best thing to do is have the dealer check it, especially if it is under warranty.

Have you been riding the brakes at all? or heated them up to a great degree through extreme braking?

I brake very gently so I do not know if I have that problem. It does not sound good. I can see thet most SVT Focuses have that kind of problem. Since I have SVT I will check that in the rain.

Does anyone have any information on the brakes that Ford uses on the SVTs?

Just yesterday I noticed the same lack of initial braking. Driving in heavy rain on the highway need to brake but they weren't grabbing at first. Never had this happen on any other car before. Interested in seeing if there is a problem or if it is just a qwirk with these cars.

I thought my car was the only one that did this, so I never thought to post anything. Looks like we have enough people to call up SVT and make a legitimate complaint.

braking and overall stickiness improves a lot if you overinflate your tires a bit, I prefer something around 35-40psi.
Untill you get the brakes fixed, I would not go 75 in the pounding rain, you got to respect the weather...
SVT is generally not so good for wet conditions, you would need something with AWD for that.

dang, it's kinda scary to see all these svtf's have this problem... but yea i kinda get that problem as well, but only happens when it's really cold outside, also it doesn't only happen in heavy rain, but in light rain as well, i hope someone actually calls svt up and says something, i actually don't want to be the first person to call up, but if someone does i will follow suit..

Put real brake pads on. Sand the rotors. Bleed the brakes. if that don't fix it you may want to think about a new master cylinder.

Originally posted by Shady R
Put real brake pads on. Sand the rotors. Bleed the brakes. if that don't fix it you may want to think about a new master cylinder.

Well I can tell you form my track day with my car that they are real brake pads. 5 15min sesions and no brake fade. I think Ford specked a very aggressive brake pad for the SVT and they don't like the cold and rain, but work well when warmed up a bit.

I would take the car into the dealership and have them take a look over brakes. Don't feal bad to call SVT about this problem they may not know about it.

Hmmm. I'm still backing up my claims in my first post in this thread about having no rain problems.
Spent quite a bit of time on track yesterday, a little wet at first, then drizzle, then rain.
Temp was in the mid 40's but dropped to the lower 30's by the end of the day.
Yes....we got snow at the house last night![?|]
Anyway, no-one, nobody, not a single person was out-braking me yesterday.
Simply amazing.
And this is on the stock Contis with 10,000+ miles and 8 AutoCrosses on them.
Maybe it's just REALLY good ABS on my car, I don't know.....
But, what I do know is I can stand on these brakes in the wet/rain,
and 50% of my effort goes to keeping my nose/face from becoming impaled in the steering wheel.

For those of you having problems, I'd be utilizing your Warranties if I were you.[;)]

maybe its your summer tires not liking the wet weather?

Once again -- My tires were not sliding. I have had this happen on the original ContiSportConact and with the new ContiExtremeContacts (great in the rain so far, not sure about snow performance - read their good, buy 'em only if you want overnight flatspotting...).
My car has 5500 miles on it. If I need a new master cylinder or to have the brakes bled Ford will have ONE MASSIVE EARACHE by the time I'm finished with them.

My feeling is that the technician who replaced the tires/remounted the wheels did not torque the lugs down in the appropriate pattern and caused the wheel to press on the disc unevenly, thus causing the disc to simulate a warped condition, and causing the pulsing that I noticed on the evening that I brought my car home from the dealership.
A very similar pulsing happened after I rotated my wife's Altima's tires a few months ago. The problem ceased after I re-torqued the front wheels. I think what happened to my car was that this pulsing pushed the pads (presumably front) ever-so-slightly apart and this exacerbated the preexisting "I'm an SVT and I hate water" condition. So, I guess I will extract my lazy ass from my computer chair and properly torque the lugnuts of all the wheels and, if I'm feeling motivated, I will also clean the pads/discs on all four corners, then let you guys know how it goes.
Thanks for your advice and support. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I think it's from very cold brakes.

I've had this a couple of times when I get to the bottom of my hill in the morning after having only gone 1/4 mile with no brake applicatino except from backing out of the driveway. Rock hard pedal with no braking ability. Next application (1/2 mile later) they're fine.

I'm hoping to catch it a few more times to get a better read on what's going on. I want to see if it's really cold brakes or the booster not working.

Originally posted by bananabuggy
I think it's from very cold brakes.

I've had this a couple of times when I get to the bottom of my hill in the morning after having only gone 1/4 mile with no brake applicatino except from backing out of the driveway. Rock hard pedal with no braking ability. Next application (1/2 mile later) they're fine.

I'm hoping to catch it a few more times to get a better read on what's going on. I want to see if it's really cold brakes or the booster not working.

I get that too when they are cold. However, in the rain, the pedal is far from rock hard...more like jello for the first pump. Feels similar to what a bad master cylinder feels like. Scary...

in one of the wettest summers we've had (which says a lot considering this is michigan) I've had it over 100 to fast stops in light rain and taken highway exit ramps @ 60-85 in heavy rain. never had a problem with slipping and the brakes have been the most impressive part of the svtf. always immediately responsive even in the heaviest downpours.

take yours in, tell them to fix it, because that's not right at all.

k

I encountered the same 'problem' with my '04 when I drove it in the rain over the past couple of weeks. When first applied, you don't sense any grip from the brakes. I didn't release and re-pump the pedal, I just maintained pressure and the brakes came on pretty quickly. I think it's a matter of the rain either cooling the discs, or a small amount of water building up between the pad and the disc. Either way, once a little heat is worked up, the brakes are normal. Not enough to concern me, but something to be aware of when blitzing down the highway in the rain.

That's what I'm figuring as well. I also think it has to do with the dealer not using the proper torque sequence when reinstalling my wheels (this might cause the rotor to behave as though it was warped which would push the pads apart a little and allow a thin layer of water to form on the rotor). When I retorqued the wheels using the correct sequence and approximately correct amount of torque I stopped experiencing this - granted, I haven't driven in a rainstorm quite as severe as the one that originally caused this problem, but I have been through a few pretty good sized storms since.

Okay guys, has anyone who has had these symptoms found a dealer willing to investigate? Has anyone just changed out pads and seen an improvement?

MY brakes are doing this now....frequently and consistently. On a recent road trip, in the cold rain on the highway, EVERYTIME I needed to slow or stop, there was NO brake response AT ALL for the first full 3 seconds after applying ever-increasing pressure to the brake pedal. Then, the brakes would gradually start to slow the car....

I spent my morning at a new dealership (well, one I had never been to before here) only to have the service manager say to me, "Lady, you have to understand that your brakes are going to respond a little differently when it's raining out." [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]g [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]*....I wanted to punch him in the throat.

So, anyone have any advice before I just order new pads and rotors?

To improve brake cooling, SVT deleted the inner splash shield that is normally found on all vehicles. This allows the discs to get wet on both sides which will affect the initial braking until they warm up and dry off.

Further, if the pads are glazed they will have a much more difficult time getting through the water up to temperature.

You might try a few high speed HARD applications to clean them off. Keep hitting them until they are grabbing really well but don't overheat them in the process. Once they are cleaned of the glaze, they should work better in the rain.

When I worked at Chevrolet, we had a lot of trouble with the Corvettes doing the same thing. They have SO much excess braking capability in normal driving that it is really difficult to keep them from glazing. I used to 'exercise' them and found it as effective as replacement so long as the pads and rotors were in good shape.

thanks for your input, I'll definitely try that...

bump for the evening crowd. any other suggestions?

Did you try this??
You might try a few high speed HARD applications to clean them off.
Keep hitting them until they are grabbing really well but don't overheat them in the process.
Once they are cleaned of the glaze, they should work better in the rain.

I've never had a problem, and have been in some pretty wet conditions.
I'm thinking it could be the amount of AutoCrossing I do that keeps the rotors from glazing.
In addition, I also get on the binders rather hard every day on the offramps as well.

Originally posted by RecoilRob
To improve brake cooling, SVT deleted the inner splash shield that is normally found on all vehicles. This allows the discs to get wet on both sides which will affect the initial braking until they warm up and dry off.

Further, if the pads are glazed they will have a much more difficult time getting through the water up to temperature.

You might try a few high speed HARD applications to clean them off. Keep hitting them until they are grabbing really well but don't overheat them in the process. Once they are cleaned of the glaze, they should work better in the rain.

When I worked at Chevrolet, we had a lot of trouble with the Corvettes doing the same thing. They have SO much excess braking capability in normal driving that it is really difficult to keep them from glazing. I used to 'exercise' them and found it as effective as replacement so long as the pads and rotors were in good shape.

Thanks for that accurate explanation. I haven't experienced that problem either but I am usually pushing my brakes hard anyway, I am notoriously hard on brakes so perhaps that is why I haven't had any glazing as well as WD40 ...... but my wheels sure are good and BLACK!! LOL I hate the factory pads for that very reason, my wheels are always dirty!!