Guys, what are some reasons that I cannot reach my target boost of 8 psi? The ones I can think of are:

1. I still have my restrictive stock exhaust on. Can this limit the boost I can make and increase my spool time?

2. A leak in the charge piping somewhere..

3. I have a base tune installed right now (although I didn't think a tune could greatly affect how much boost you are making)

4. Inaccurate boost gauge

My gauge tops out at about 6psi. Power comes on hard around 2500-3000 rpm and then I would say it levels off from 4000 rpm on. Is this expected? It is just bugging me that I do not see the 8psi on my gauge..makes me feel like I'm missing power. Thanks for your input.

all = fail..... sounds like you may have a little bit too small a turbo for it (trust me I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to turbos....)


the exhaust I'm willing to bet is a MAJOR MAJOR factor though.....

maybe the spring in the wastegate is only good for about 6 psi even.....?

yea I was told that about the exhaust when I bought the kit. To clarify this is a FSwerks stage 1, with a GT28R turbo - which is supposed to run at 8psi.

ok then it's more than likely the exhaust.....

1. You should NOT be running any Turbo set up on the stock exhaust. It will blow up soon. (I don't know that for sure, I've just been told it's bad)

2. If you're driving the car around with just the base tune bad things could happen really quickly.

Ok....boost pressure is a measure of the RESISTANCE to flow.

In other words, small exhaust does not limit the maximum boost pressure, but it will make you spool slowly. Kill your turbo????? No.

Tune only affects boost if you are not tuned for higher RPMs and you are getting some sort of torque control that is kicking in. So the ECU may be cutting spark or fuel because it doesn't like the boost/power building like it is. You would definitely feel this, though. Would feel more like a stutter.

Leak in charge piping is a very possible candidate. I had a vacuum leak and the car was struggling to get past 5 psi.

Inaccurate boost gauge is possible, but there's no way you know what you have your boost controller set at. It should continue to go up as your boost controller is adjusted.

I will attempt to tighten all of my hose clamps tonight or tomorrow and see what happens. KJSoccer, from what I know my "base tune" is actually someone else's final tune. Randy distributes his programs in that way, you get someone else's final tune (for your ecu and car of course) and then he builds on top of that if needed. I watch the A/F ratio and everything appears to be in order.

Whenever I turn my key on 2 clicks (not starting it though) my boost gauge zeros itself and it always starts about half a needle width below 0. When I turn the car on it goes in to vacuum like it should. Maybe since the zero-ing point is off, the ~6psi I'm seeing is actually ~7 and maybe because of a leak in the hose I'm taking boost from, that 7psi is actually ~8.

All I know is that it stops making boost at or before 4000 rpm. Having been in other turboed cars, it feels like it should continue to provide more boost as you climb higher in rpm. I could be wrong though.

Good grief, stock exhaust w/ boost? Jeez...

The stock exhaust is restrictive for even mild N/A builds, let alone boost.

I know man, I just dont have the funds for a new exhaust right now.

ya, with the stock exhaust you will be more then disappointed with everything, trust me on that one LOL

i was disappointed when i had a 2.25 from when i was N/A, so within a week of having stage 2 i went 2.5" and never looked back. bigger exhaust will let your turbo flow better. right now you have a huge bottle neck at the exhaust, going from a 2.5" down pipe to a 2" factory exhaust likely still having factory cat aswell. grab a trubendz if your on a tight budget, they are around 300$ IIRC for a stainless 2.5" and cheaper for a alumized.

just to put this into perspective for ya when i installed my 2.5" exhaust i was running 11psi with the 2.25 exhaust, when i did a WOT pull, boost went up to 14psi

What RPM are you seeing 6psi, if it’s before redline I don’t think it’s your exhaust. Maybe I’m wrong but I think a stock exhaust would just make your turbo less efficient and take longer to spool but, but may not prevent you from making full boost it just may make boost later.
Also it could be a combination of things, one you’re losing boost in the piping though the bends and that. Also your actuator is picking boost up at the turbo and not that the manifold, so it starting to open when it see 8psi at the turbo not manifold. You can add a turn or two of pre load to your acuter as long as your tuner feels comfortable with that.

you can move you boost gauge to pick up boost from the same line as your actuator is getting boost from I bet your see 8psi there.

I dont agree that your exh is THE issue , will it hurt some performance yes , short of stopped up or clogged the 2.25 for your goals should be fine

If your waste gate is set to 6 then 6 is all your going to see , have you tryed to up the boost to 8psi or are you just expecting it to go there by its self , If you have tryed to up the boost controler to 8 and it will not go then you may have issues with many things exh being one of them

A simple rule of thump is 2 inch exh will do 250 , 2.5 will do 300 , 3 will do much much more as long as it is working properly

Tom

I have not tried to adjust the wastegate. I would say I reach Max boost before 4000 rpm. maybe around 3500rpm. I was under the impression my kit came with the wastegate dialed in for 8 psi but I could be wrong. also, I don't have a boost controller, this is only stage 1. right now my boost gauge is reading from the line that runs from the diverter valve to the intake manifold. I don't think I would want to mess with the actuator line, but I see what you're saying about a difference in reading. technically it would be OK to have 8 psi at the intake manifold correct? so I could be making 8 psi right now (in compressor) but only seeing 6 because the wastegate is based on compressor pressure?

Posted via FF Mobile

I have not tried to adjust the wastegate. I would say I reach Max boost before 4000 rpm. maybe around 3500rpm. I was under the impression my kit came with the wastegate dialed in for 8 psi but I could be wrong. also, I don't have a boost controller, this is only stage 1. right now my boost gauge is reading from the line that runs from the diverter valve to the intake manifold. I don't think I would want to mess with the actuator line, but I see what you're saying about a difference in reading. technically it would be OK to have 8 psi at the intake manifold correct? so I could be making 8 psi right now (in compressor) but only seeing 6 because the wastegate is based on compressor pressure?

Posted via FF Mobile

I don’t remember how much of a difference I saw in mine but there was definitely a drop though the piping, I moved my boost gauge around to just get an idea of what was happening. So if your actuator is not properly adjusted, I know mine said to have 3 turns preload, I think I got about 0.5psi more per turn. Also you gauge could be off a little to.

Your waste gate vac line SHOULD be coming from the intake not the compressor side of the turbo that alone should give you 1.5 to 3 SPI

Leave your boost gauge where it is at the intake and move the waste gate line to the intake where it should be , keep the line short as lengeth comes into play with adding more boost as well

Tom

pardon my terminology here, but on the FSwerks kits the wastegate reference line comes from the "out" side of the cold side, there is a barbed elbow to attach vac line to and that it the only spot to read from with the kit.

have you checked everything for leaks? The wastegate that comes with the stage 1 & 2 kits has an 8 psi spring in it so it should be hitting 7-8 psi. you could vary well have a small leak somewhere. just go over all of the compressed pipes and make sure everything is tight. its hard to get a leak with these its because everything is bead rolled but it can still happen. there is one coupler at the turbo, one below where the crank pulley is, and two where the factory intake goes. check em all over. what does Vac read when your sitting at idle? should be sitting at 20 mm-Hg roughly

also, with regards to your question regarding the power band, you will hit full boost by about 2700 rpm give or take depending on turbo, exhaust and whether tuning is finished or not so hitting 6 psi under 3k rpm, it should hold until redline, but power doesnt increase a ton past 4,000 rpm especially with that exhaust

I really appreciate your replies guys. The fswerks kit comes with the wastegate line tied into the compressor Tom. I can see why you would want it to the intake **manifold, however.

Just finished talking with Randy from FSwerks and he said they have seen many times that people get ~6psi with the stock exhaust.

Jamiezx4 thanks for clarifying the powerband thing. I was unsure of whether boost should be developing throughout the rpm range or not.

Let me clarify to those that dont understand how turbos work

With the boost reference for the waste gate coming from the compressor side of the turbo you get boost psi off what the compressor is seeing

Factor in piping bends , boost drop from intercooler , length of piping and other things you will see 1 to 3 psi less at the intake then at the turbo

With boost reference for the waste gate coming from the intake (like it should be) you DONT loose boost and get ACTUAL boost target at the intake

Yes it will work either way , the RIGHT way is waste gate hooked to intake to get the actual waste gate boost vs psi drop boost

This is all turboing 101 , nothing new here , I guess it just depends on whoose doing it and what they know

Tom

I really appreciate your replies guys. The fswerks kit comes with the wastegate line tied into the compressor Tom. I can see why you would want it to the intake, however.

Just finished talking with Randy from FSwerks and he said they have seen many times that people get ~6psi with the stock exhaust.

Jamiezx4 thanks for clarifying the powerband thing. I was unsure of whether boost should be developing throughout the rpm range or not.



Allow me to clarify a few things about our FSWERKS turbo kit. The Stage 1 kit is designed to run ~8psi with a free flowing 2.5" exhaust. Using anything more restrictive will begin to degrade power and ultimately reduce boost pressure (like your experiencing). If you’ve installed the kit correctly I can almost guarantee you that this issue is from running the stock exhaust. I have personally seen 8-10 customers with identical issues of low boost symptoms on our dyno while running the stock exhaust. The only (proper) fix is installing an adequate exhaust for the turbo kit (2.5" or larger).

The FSWERKS turbo kit like most kits is designed to source or reference boost directly from the compressor (which is how your setup is). This is truly the correct method.

Here's some turbo 101 info you can read up on which explains this (read the wastegate portion)... http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

So there is no need to worry, just replace the restrictive stock exhaust and the problem will be solved along with making about 20 additional hp with quicker spool up.




Thanks,
Vik

Your right Vic I keep forgetting you guys are still stuck in the 80`s where you use internal waste gates , you did read where it said External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of an external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to
improve the turbine’s performance Improves the tubins performance but that would cost you what another 250 in the kit to make the kit better ?

Dont know that I buy it wont take Vac as I have many doing it over the years but have you guys never heard of a 1 way valve , they cost about 3.00 -9.00 and only allow Vac or psi to go one way but then again sence your stuck in the 80`s when it comes to what a good turbo kit needs I can see how you wouldnt know about this

And most kits ARE NOT designed to source from the compressor because most kits now days dont use internal waste gates any more , wake up its 2010 get your act togather , your turbo 101 didnt to anything but confirm what I have been saying about internal waste gates to all your fan boys about how they actually hurt performance

If the stock exh is causing this issue at 6-8psi then it is a design issue with the kit as i have dozens of cars running 10 psi with stock Zetec exh and no issues as do many other kits with 2 inch , pipe size is pipe size what its on wont matter

Thank you now before you look more foolish go back to fj where people dont know better and you get away with crap like this


Tom

easy guys. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Vik, I assume you don't approve of messing with the wastegate preload until I see 8psi at the intake manifold?

Your right Vic I keep forgetting you guys are still stuck in the 80`s where you use internal waste gates , you did read where it said Improves the tubins performance but that would cost you what another 250 in the kit to make the kit better ?

Dont know that I buy it wont take Vac as I have many doing it over the years but have you guys never heard of a 1 way valve , they cost about 3.00 -9.00 and only allow Vac or psi to go one way but then again sence your stuck in the 80`s when it comes to what a good turbo kit needs I can see how you wouldnt know about this

And most kits ARE NOT designed to source from the compressor because most kits now days dont use internal waste gates any more , wake up its 2010 get your act togather , your turbo 101 didnt to anything but confirm what I have been saying about internal waste gates to all your fan boys about how they actually hurt performance

If the stock exh is causing this issue at 6-8psi then it is a design issue with the kit as i have dozens of cars running 10 psi with stock Zetec exh and no issues as do many other kits with 2 inch , pipe size is pipe size what its on wont matter

Thank you now before you look more foolish go back to fj where people dont know better and you get away with crap like this


Tom



In regards to our customer which is looking for answers you have done very little in improving his knowledge and understanding of our turbo kit. Instead you have once again challenged the ideas of internal and external wastegates, boost sources, etc...

Internal wastegates which the FSWERKS kit use are not designed to reference vacuum because it pulls the rubber diaphragm off the internal spring perch which can cause it to pinch and prematurely wear over time. This can eventually lead to an internal leak.

Can a check valve be used to cure this?
Yes that can work but it's a bad idea to run objects in the boost reference line because if they ever fail or get stuck the engine can over boost and can result in engine damage.

Nearly all cars still use internal wastegates. How they are controlled is the only thing that’s really changed...

Here are a few vehicles which use internal gate and a link with Nissan GTR pictures proving this claim...
http://www.gtrblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/gtr-vs-specv-turbos-01.jpg

Nissan GTR (480hp)
Porsche 911 Turbo (480hp)
Bugatti Veyron (1001hp)
VW GTI (200hp)


Much of your response is actually inaccurate about your testing of the stock exhaust. You’re inaccurately comparing a Zetec exhaust to a Duratec exhaust. For one they are not designed alike and the Duratec has a secondary catalytic converter which is where much of the restriction comes from along with its small 2" size.



Thanks,
Vik

easy guys. I just want to get to the bottom of this. Vik, I assume you don't approve of messing with the wastegate preload until I see 8psi at the intake manifold?


Yes, don't tamper with the wastegate as it's already pre-adjusted when it leaves our facility. You need to replace your stock exhaust system to get the additional boost your missing along with more power. The stock exhaust is really a BAD bottleneck for the turbo kit which increases heat and reduces overall performance.


Thanks,
Vik

Even so...the wastegate is seeing the correct pressure but it's not making it to the intake manifold. While this does sound like a restriction, it won't necessarily hurt anything if you increase spring pressure in order to make the correct boost at the intake, correct? In other words, the turbo may be working to make 10psi, but you will only see 8psi at the intake, which is where the power is made...

This isnt a designed stock car that comes factory with a turbo kit , Its an AFTERMARKET kit that is installed on a factory NA car

Factory cars its a given to use internal waste gate to keep cost down among other things but as YOUR turbo 101 states you loose performance especially when its a kit for a NA car , its day and night the cars you listed vs the low quality kit you have , spend the money and R&D that was spent on the stock production cars you listed above on a turbo kit and the turbos uses and you will see a HUGH diff in the out come

You make it sound like you kit is the quality of the internal waste gate kits on the cars you listed and your not even in the same game let alone ball field


I have never seen a mechanical one way check valve fail or have I had or seen a internal waste gate fail from Vac its a steel ball and stainless spring and if it failes just lets vac to the pod so no engine damage could be done

As for the Exh a CAT should not be used with a NA car taken to Turbo as they use a diff type CAT because of the richer burn and you should be stating this in your info as a HUGH CAUTION but again your behind the times on this stuff and more then likely didnt know that

You may want to change to a quality internal wast gate pod then because most out there can take vacume , This email was just the first place in a long list that poped up so shot him a email asking them about vac to the intarnal pod

"Tom,

There is no issue running the waste gate off of the intake manifold. Vacuum is not going to damage the internal gate at all.
--
Thanks, Sales
Turbo Elements
www.turboelements.com


Tom

Even so...the wastegate is seeing the correct pressure but it's not making it to the intake manifold. While this does sound like a restriction, it won't necessarily hurt anything if you increase spring pressure in order to make the correct boost at the intake, correct? In other words, the turbo may be working to make 10psi, but you will only see 8psi at the intake, which is where the power is made...


Yes this is correct. However when our customer eventually replaces his exhaust he will be at the correct boost level. If he tampers with it now it will be too high when the exhaust is actually upgraded which will need to be adjusted again. Better off leaving it and getting a proper exhaust when he can afford it.


Thanks,
Vik

roger doger. Unfortunately fswerks doesnt offer a system with a high flow cat. This would be a problem in my state so I will have to purchase from someone else. Thanks everyone for your input.

This isnt a designed stock car that comes factory with a turbo kit , Its an AFTERMARKET kit that is installed on a factory NA car

Factory cars its a given to use internal waste gate to keep cost down among other things but as YOUR turbo 101 states you loose performance especially when its a kit for a NA car , its day and night the cars you listed vs the low quality kit you have , spend the money and R&D that was spent on the stock production cars you listed above on a turbo kit and the turbos uses and you will see a HUGH diff in the out come

You make it sound like you kit is the quality of the internal waste gate kits on the cars you listed and your not even in the same game let alone ball field


I have never seen a mechanical one way check valve fail or have I had or seen a internal waste gate fail from Vac its a steel ball and stainless spring and if it failes just lets vac to the pod so no engine damage could be done

As for the Exh a CAT should not be used with a NA car taken to Turbo as they use a diff type CAT because of the richer burn and you should be stating this in your info as a HUGH CAUTION but again your behind the times on this stuff and more then likely didnt know that

You may want to change to a quality internal wast gate pod then because most out there can take vacume , This email was just the first place in a long list that poped up so shot him a email asking them about vac to the intarnal pod

"Tom,

There is no issue running the waste gate off of the intake manifold. Vacuum is not going to damage the internal gate at all.
--
Thanks, Sales
Turbo Elements
www.turboelements.com


Tom

tom i don't think you can talk about quality. many of us on here have seen your attempt at a duratec turbo kit. it was pretty clear you weren't concerned with quality. maybe you should just keep quiet until you have something that doesn't cause people to question whether they are looking at a homemade junkyard kit or something from a business that is supposed to be the best out there.

from what i know the fsw kits already have to limit the power for stock engines so i don't see the point about going on and on about how people need to go with an external gate. and when i called fsw about an external gate they said with their turbo manifold it already has the provision to covert over is someone wants to. it's the kit owners choice. i asked fsw how many people convert over and they said there have been one or two that they know of. so fsw can charge more and offer it or the customer can do it. either way it costs money. so maybe you should just talk shit on the consumers who make the decisions to do what they end up doing.

the op said he was told about what the stock exhaust would do and it looks like vic has explained what needed to be explained.

roger doger. Unfortunately fswerks doesnt offer a system with a high flow cat. This would be a problem in my state so I will have to purchase from someone else. Thanks everyone for your input.

We are actually looking into making a high flow cat portion which will be a direct fitment with our exhaust. Give us a call on Monday for more information, we can probably make one up for you in your situation.

Thanks,
Vik

Your right Vic I keep forgetting you guys are still stuck in the 80`s where you use internal waste gates , you did read where it said Improves the tubins performance but that would cost you what another 250 in the kit to make the kit better ?

Dont know that I buy it wont take Vac as I have many doing it over the years but have you guys never heard of a 1 way valve , they cost about 3.00 -9.00 and only allow Vac or psi to go one way but then again sence your stuck in the 80`s when it comes to what a good turbo kit needs I can see how you wouldnt know about this



the only thing i can see here stuck in the 80's is your hair do, time to change it up mullet man [rofl]

just had to say it...

also tom, in case you hadnt noticed FSwerks offers a line of T3 external wastegate products now that you can upgrade to for the duratec if that tickles your fancy so yes they do have that option [headbang]

Ugh...this thread really should end RIGHT HERE if we don't want it to turn into a flame war. I am calling upon the FF gods to prevent the mayhem [pray]

First you being a fs fan boy I expected nothing less then vic needing support from you guys , the few duratic kits that i did were flawless till some one else tuned and messed with them , you never say anything but pictures where he didnt pait the piping after having it off and scratching it up , even when he posted it for sale he stated he had no issues till it was tuned from another shop , the new owner has changed nothing about it and will soon have it running again , you love using this one kit to throw in my fase yet you know nothing about the kit other then what you hear from more fs fan boys

As for the kit there is ways to build kits and there is right ways , I like doing it right , you settle for second best them bitch about others , thats your choise , you chose it so dont be so upset about it

Tom

tom i don't think you can talk about quality. many of us on here have seen your attempt at a duratec turbo kit. it was pretty clear you weren't concerned with quality. maybe you should just keep quiet until you have something that doesn't cause people to question whether they are looking at a homemade junkyard kit or something from a business that is supposed to be the best out there.

from what i know the fsw kits already have to limit the power for stock engines so i don't see the point about going on and on about how people need to go with an external gate. and when i called fsw about an external gate they said with their turbo manifold it already has the provision to covert over is someone wants to. it's the kit owners choice. i asked fsw how many people convert over and they said there have been one or two that they know of. so fsw can charge more and offer it or the customer can do it. either way it costs money. so maybe you should just talk shit on the consumers who make the decisions to do what they end up doing.

the op said he was told about what the stock exhaust would do and it looks like vic has explained what needed to be explained.

the only thing i can see here stuck in the 80's is your hair do, time to change it up mullet man [rofl]

just had to say it...

also tom, in case you hadnt noticed FSwerks offers a line of T3 external wastegate products now that you can upgrade to for the duratec if that tickles your fancy so yes they do have that option [headbang]

I love how you haters know so much about me and the ideas on how I should look is so high in your thoughts ,

Its much more then just the waste gate , its the MAF location , BOV all which a quality kit would and should have , those willing to settle for a second rate kit why keep bashing on me , I am allowed my opinion just like you , and I love my mullet

You guys are the ones paying for it , if you had any balls you would be turning this on them making them fix what needs to be done and end up with a better product instead you rather take cheap lame shots at my haid do

Tom

Tom

what a crock. you haven't done a few flawless Duratec turbo kits and you know it, tom.

lets see the pics of the cars and the kits on them. lets see some dyno charts. lets see some videos.

whats that? you don't have to prove anything to anyone? i should search for them myself? sounds like the same thing you always say. i have your replies memorized so i just saved you the trouble of typing them out.

every time i read your sig i laugh. aside from all of the typos, poor grammar, and random capitalization this really clearly isn't where the proven performance begins. not from you anyway.

and here you are telling people to get with the times. it's 2010 and the self proclaimed best tuner of the focus doesn't even have a full duratec turbo kit out. maybe you should take your own advice for a change.

I love how you haters know so much about me and the ideas on how I should look is so high in your thoughts ,

Its much more then just the waste gate , its the MAF location , BOV all which a quality kit would and should have , those willing to settle for a second rate kit why keep bashing on me , I am allowed my opinion just like you , and I love my mullet

You guys are the ones paying for it , if you had any balls you would be turning this on them making them fix what needs to be done and end up with a better product instead you rather take cheap lame shots at my haid do

Tom

Tom

Second to who? Last I checked (about 2 minutes ago) the FSWerks kit is the only COMPLETE turbo kit on the market. The only thing second rate around here is you, considering last I checked (about 3 minutes ago) a certain someone's tuning is cheaper than yours.

If you think their kit sucks and since you seem to know sooo much more and have far more success with boosted duratecs Mr. 80's mullet man, why don't you try to out do them... oh wait, you did try, and you failed... hard! Stick to your Zetecs and SVTs and accept the fact that FSWerks rules the duratec FI world ok. [:)]

damn, you are trapping at 105mph SMITHBOY76908????

On street tires and stock dif, yes.

Not to take anything away from your car at all, but what blown Mustang runs slower than 13.52? I would hope most ('99 and newer, stock motor) with the right setup would be running quicker... Your car is definitely fast, though.

Not to take anything away from your car at all, but what blown Mustang runs slower than 13.52? I would hope most ('99 and newer, stock motor) with the right setup would be running quicker... Your car is definitely fast, though.

'01 GT PI 4.6L, Vortech V2 V-trim @ 10psi non-intercooled, Acufab throttle body and plenum with 1" spacer, 42# injectors, very conservative box tune, everything else stock except magnaflow axleback. I walked him from a roll. I will refrain from further details here due to forum rules but I do have a video. [:)]

how well do you hook up with the street tires and the stock differential? just wondering.

how well do you hook up with the street tires and the stock differential? just wondering.

Not too bad. I shift 1-2 at around 4k, 2-3 at around 6k and boost from there. I pull 3rd all the way to 7,200. My best 60ft is a 2.11 with a average about 2.16. The 13.52 pass was with a 2.16 60ft.

ENOUGH....guys cmon save it for PM's. I have gotten my information...

LET THIS THREAD DIE

ENOUGH....guys cmon save it for PM's. I have gotten my information...

LET THIS THREAD DIE

Sorry dude.

/thread

I lol'ed.

ATP one of the largest sellers of Turbo and turbo parts around



Tom,
It will take vacuum from the manifold but not sure if your boost will go up. You may need a boost controller to do that.


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Voice: 614-771-8966


Tom

i trap a 117 lol ok back on topic