ok ive been outta the loop for a while. is there any other kits then this one yet. and out of the 2 kits they have the tuner for 2499 and the tuned for 3195. which is the better deal. thanks ian

F2 is working on there kit with a new turbo and external waste gate , should be out soon , I would wait

Tom

i went to there site didnt see anything yet. i want boost so bad.

Here is some good info on the duratec kits.
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198951

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198655

Right now FSWERKS is the only choice and if you want a turn key kit you will want the full kit not the tuner kit. F2 pulled there kit off the market after only a couple half way working kits because of crappy tunes,turbo and other issues.

Here is some good info on the duratec kits.
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198951

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198655

Right now FSWERKS is the only choice and if you want a turn key kit you will want the full kit not the tuner kit. F2 pulled there kit off the market after only a couple half way working kits because of crappy tunes,turbo and other issues.

Thats not exactly true , The put there kit on hold to test a better choice in turbos everyone has the option to get there car tuned where ever they like and still do

If F2 keeps going in the direction they are going the F2 kit should be the best Duratec Focus kit on the market , F2 will be using a non OEM turbo , external waste gate ,

I feel if your looking for a turbo kit for you Duratec Focus the F2 kit is worth the wait

Tom

FleeWannaBe I may be able to get my hands on one of these kit , I am in NC , Can you install it and bring it to me for tuning if I can make this happen ?

Tom

Thats not exactly true , The put there kit on hold to test a better choice in turbos everyone has the option to get there car tuned where ever they like and still do

If F2 keeps going in the direction they are going the F2 kit should be the best Duratec Focus kit on the market , F2 will be using a non OEM turbo , external waste gate ,

I feel if your looking for a turbo kit for you Duratec Focus the F2 kit is worth the wait

Tom

Seems to be alot of should be when dealing with F2.

Thats the way things happen when you come out with the best Duratec turbo kit on the market

F2 worth the wait !

Tom

Thats the way things happen when you come out with the best Duratec turbo kit on the market

F2 worth the wait !

Tom

Are another big failure with pissed off customers like the last time.Maybe they will fully test the kit on there on cars before rushing it out to market this time.I wish them good luck with it though sound like a really awesome kit to bad there customer service still sucks.

I would have to say I would have gotten the F2 kit when I purchased mine just to save a little money, but I got impatient and bought the FSwerks kit. I am glad I did not wait they still have not gotten the bugs worked out with the kit, the one person I know that has the kit is getting frustrated that his car is still in the shop and it has been two months now, to me that is bad service.

I would have to say I would have gotten the F2 kit when I purchased mine just to save a little money, but I got impatient and bought the FSwerks kit. I am glad I did not wait they still have not gotten the bugs worked out with the kit, the one person I know that has the kit is getting frustrated that his car is still in the shop and it has been two months now, to me that is bad service.

Agreed 100%

I bought the FSWERKS stage 2 kit and it is a very awesome kit. You definitely get your money's worth. F2 just isn't firing on all cylinders. I like their swap from Masterpower to Comp turbos, but they just don't have it all together. If you want true performance that has been proven over and over again, go w/ the FSWERKS kit. You won't regret it!

Alright here is some info that I got from F2. They are still waiting on everthing to be finallize on what comp turbo setup they are going with since it will be custome for the focus. Unlike there master power setup every kit they make be it for the focus, mazda or fusion has its own turbo setup for that type of car. I believe they just finished up the mazda one and will be finishing up the focus one shortly. Also as if goes for all the F2 focus masterpower turbo kits they will all be getting and updated tune once my tune gets finished next weekend. Thats the latest update. If I find out any more info I'll post up updates.

Agreed 100%

I bought the FSWERKS stage 2 kit and it is a very awesome kit. You definitely get your money's worth. F2 just isn't firing on all cylinders. I like their swap from Masterpower to Comp turbos, but they just don't have it all together. If you want true performance that has been proven over and over again, go w/ the FSWERKS kit. You won't regret it!

You should really read the fswerks / f2 thread and open your eyes. It's been said many times over, any new kit will need tweeks. That and f2 just introduced theirs, it was found there were some quirks so it was pulled for a new design with a much better turbo and a tune by the master.
But with who they have been discussing changes and tuning with. It's nice when people can work together to get us an outstanding product.

Also the only reason F2 switched from the masterpower turbo is because there turbos weren't being delievered from the supplier in a timely fashion. So the kit has been put on hold until the comp turbo is ready for sale.

Are another big failure with pissed off customers like the last time.Maybe they will fully test the kit on there on cars before rushing it out to market this time.I wish them good luck with it though sound like a really awesome kit to bad there customer service still sucks.

I've been reading a good amount of their info over on the Mazda 3 Forums, now yes the Mazda 3 isn't exactly the same as the Focus but their quality does look better than ever over on there as well as the R&D that they are putting into it from what it seems.

You should really read the fswerks / f2 thread and open your eyes. It's been said many times over, any new kit will need tweeks. That and f2 just introduced theirs, it was found there were some quirks so it was pulled for a new design with a much better turbo and a tune by the master.
But with who they have been discussing changes and tuning with. It's nice when people can work together to get us an outstanding product.

X2, FS had issues when theirs first came out too so I wouldn't be skeptical yet on their kit, just gotta give them some time. But they did do the respectable thing and pull if off the market so I do gotta give them kudos to that instead of flushing them out with problems.

1. Nothing personal against F2... but their service has lacked for many people on many occasions. Their first attempt at a turbo kit for the Duratec was pulled rather quickly due to tuning issues and other problems. I know personally of 2 kits that were returned and the owners purchased FS kits instead.


2. FS now has over 90 kits on the road with several of these cars running the kits for over 3 years... 1 car I know of has over 100k on it and has been running the kit trouble free since 18k.... tell me that's not reliability right there...

Wow... slow server... double post...

1. Nothing personal against F2... but their service has lacked for many people on many occasions. Their first attempt at a turbo kit for the Duratec was pulled rather quickly due to tuning issues and other problems. I know personally of 2 kits that were returned and the owners purchased FS kits instead.

F2 did NOT pull there kit for any issues other than they are switching turbo companies. People get that straight.

1. Nothing personal against F2... but their service has lacked for many people on many occasions. Their first attempt at a turbo kit for the Duratec was pulled rather quickly due to tuning issues and other problems. I know personally of 2 kits that were returned and the owners purchased FS kits instead.


2. FS now has over 90 kits on the road with several of these cars running the kits for over 3 years... 1 car I know of has over 100k on it and has been running the kit trouble free since 18k.... tell me that's not reliability right there...

lol, discussed so many times. Why not ask randy how many problems came up when their first kits came out.
As you stated, they've been out over 3 yrs. f2 is just beginning. ANY new product will have bugs that need to be modified and changed. Hell, everytime they change the focus it takes awhile to tweek it... they still haven't got the svt tune right yet [shhh]

FleeWannaBe I may be able to get my hands on one of these kit , I am in NC , Can you install it and bring it to me for tuning if I can make this happen ?

Tom

Dang Tom, I am still waiting on the F2 kit. Although being in Hawaii isnt helping your tuning problem... BUT I am willing to be a test mule if you can grab a kit!

Also remember when the kit comes back out with the comp turbo there will still be the option to have your own custom tuning done. So for people that are worried about the tune you can get your own.

I bought the fw werks stage 2 kit, and I it is a great kit. It fits up real nice, and I haven't had any issues with it. The kit shipped in a matter of days too.

I have dealt with F2 as well. Ricardo seems like a nice enough guy, but it took a long time to get what I ordered,(over a month) they are slow to return e-mails/voice mails (they ignored most of mine) and despite dozens of requests, I'm still waiting on an official spec sheet for the built motor I bought early last spring.

If you want your boost, go with FS Werks.

Yea,i read way to many problems with F2 in general but you can pay your moneys and take your chances with them i guess.Most people arent really in the position to risk several thousand dollars for a kit.Then months of down time with there car because of problems with the kit for what ever reason tune,its new,wrong parts,yada yada yada.

lol, discussed so many times. Why not ask randy how many problems came up when their first kits came out.
As you stated, they've been out over 3 yrs. f2 is just beginning. ANY new product will have bugs that need to be modified and changed. Hell, everytime they change the focus it takes awhile to tweek it... they still haven't got the svt tune right yet [shhh]
Wow is your head under a rock are what?
Why dont you fill us in on all the major problems FS had when their kits first came out.
Hmm,according to Randy they didn't really have any major problems when there kit first came out.

A new product may have bugs that need to be modified and changed but F2 had MAJOR problems a blown engine,blown trans,wrong turbo,wrong charge pipe,bad tunes,$hitty customer service.

Honestly I'm tired of people that have there one favorite compain and have nothing but bad things to say about any other compainy. I'm honestly don't waisting my energy on this. Go ahead and say what you want. Doesn't make it any more true or false. Its the internet after all. People can post what they want.

Wow is your head under a rock are what?
Why dont you fill us in on all the major problems FS had when their kits first came out.
Hmm,according to Randy they didn't really have any major problems when there kit first came out.

A new product may have bugs that need to be modified and changed but F2 had MAJOR problems a blown engine,blown trans,wrong turbo,wrong charge pipe,bad tunes,$hitty customer service.

But you gotta give credit to ricardo and team, they did what was right and pulled it off the market once problems were discovered. We all understand your an FSWERKS fan boy, I like their stuff too, I've talked to Randy a bunch of times. But you can't really compare F2's Kit to FS's at the moment as F2's Kit doesn't have the years of R&D like the FS Kit does and the F2 Kit isn't for sale at the moment. So yes currently the FS is the best and only option at the moment aside from building your own kit obviously, but honestly before dropping that amount of change on a kit, I'd wait to see what a competitor has just to validate making a right choice especially when dropping over $3K.

Trust me I've been watching some of the threads on the Mazda forums, F2's Kit may add in a challenge to FS's Kit which would be cool to see two really good kits out there.

Personally I'd wait, I just like being the educated buyer instead of looking at the only option available when another option is right around the bend.

But you gotta give credit to ricardo and team, they did what was right and pulled it off the market once problems were discovered. We all understand your an FSWERKS fan boy, I like their stuff too, I've talked to Randy a bunch of times. But you can't really compare F2's Kit to FS's at the moment as F2's Kit doesn't have the years of R&D like the FS Kit does and the F2 Kit isn't for sale at the moment. So yes currently the FS is the best and only option at the moment aside from building your own kit obviously, but honestly before dropping that amount of change on a kit, I'd wait to see what a competitor has just to validate making a right choice especially when dropping over $3K.

Trust me I've been watching some of the threads on the Mazda forums, F2's Kit may add in a challenge to FS's Kit which would be cool to see two really good kits out there.

Personally I'd wait, I just like being the educated buyer instead of looking at the only option available when another option is right around the bend.

The highlighted portion is exactly why I advice to go with the FSWERKS kit. Why dump thousands of dollars into a turbo kit to be a guinea pig when you can put that money into a kit that you KNOW bolts right up, has proven time and time again that it's true performance at it's best, and will last you for a very long time!

I'm just kinda curious if F2 tested their kit on one of their own cars first. Obviously not if the first 2 kits sold turned out to be epic fail weak sauce. THAT my friends is sh_tty customer service! I give them credit for pulling the kit when they found the issue, but if they'd really tested the kit to its full extent before they put it on the market, then maybe they wouldn't be in this position.

Wow is your head under a rock are what?
Why dont you fill us in on all the major problems FS had when their kits first came out.
Hmm,according to Randy they didn't really have any major problems when there kit first came out.

A new product may have bugs that need to be modified and changed but F2 had MAJOR problems a blown engine,blown trans,wrong turbo,wrong charge pipe,bad tunes,$hitty customer service.

I love the guys that try to give advise about turbos or turbo kits off the one and only turbo car most have ever owned , and most of them didnt install or tune them so they have NO experiance other then they liked the guy that sold it to them

Internal waste gate is done to build cheaper kits no other reason

suck through MAF is done because they cant tune blowthrough, for all it has to offer and its cheaper to just stick it on the inlet

OEM turbos are use to build cheap turbo kits and yes the fs kit has a GT turbo so it IS a OEM turbo

cheap , cheap , cheap is all I see , after that buck

Why is it you fs guys never bring up these issues at least F2 is correcting 2 of the 3 issues and I hope at some point all 3 of them , they havent corrected or made any improvements in there kit sence it came out , Why is that , It sure isnt because it does not need it never seen a "perfect" turbo kit. Its because that would cost more money and sence the suckers are buying it why change anything is the mentality

Give F2 a chance , they saw there was issues and are correcting it , if when it comes out its not right I will be the first to say so AGAIN

Tom

The highlighted portion is exactly why I advice to go with the FSWERKS kit. Why dump thousands of dollars into a turbo kit to be a guinea pig when you can put that money into a kit that you KNOW bolts right up, has proven time and time again that it's true performance at it's best, and will last you for a very long time!.

True performance at its best ? ? ? ? ? read what I posted above at its best wouldnt mean cheap OEM turbos , suck through MAF , Internal waste gate , Its people like you that I posted above what I posted

As for the years of R&D just how many years R&D do you think fs did on this kit before they released there very first kit , R&D means they learned things and made changes , what were they

F2 is doing true R&D right now and your bashing them for it

Tom

LOL Love when ppl are so biased and stupid on top of it lol. R&D what does that stand for HMMM most of the FS ppl think that means its a final product lol DUMB PPL FTW

I love the guys that try to give advise about turbos or turbo kits off the one and only turbo car most have ever owned , and most of them didnt install or tune them so they have NO experiance other then they liked the guy that sold it to them

Internal waste gate is done to build cheaper kits no other reason

suck through MAF is done because they cant tune blowthrough, for all it has to offer and its cheaper to just stick it on the inlet

OEM turbos are use to build cheap turbo kits and yes the fs kit has a GT turbo so it IS a OEM turbo

cheap , cheap , cheap is all I see , after that buck

Why is it you fs guys never bring up these issues at least F2 is correcting 2 of the 3 issues and I hope at some point all 3 of them , they havent corrected or made any improvements in there kit sence it came out , Why is that , It sure isnt because it does not need it never seen a "perfect" turbo kit. Its because that would cost more money and sence the suckers are buying it why change anything is the mentality

Give F2 a chance , they saw there was issues and are correcting it , if when it comes out its not right I will be the first to say so AGAIN

Tom

I dont know Tom why is anyone to believe what you say about external waste gate,blowthrough and choice of turbos for this application.You had a chance to prove the benefits of all that with your Duratec turbo kit. But instead it ended up being an undriveable unreliable nightmare for the owner and what did that cost $5000.00 hmmm after that buck arent you all.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7836/48343254.jpg

R&D is to be done BEFORE final release of the product, not AFTER. Using customers as a test bed for your product is not a good way to instill confidence in your customer base, nor is having shoddy customer service practices. It's a pretty simple concept.

Until F2 (or anyone else) can put fourth a product that is of the same quality as FSWerks, with the same customer service, fit, finish, and price, I'll continue to recommend them.

I haven't done business with F2, and after all of the horror stories I hear, I won't. Every issue there has been with FSWerks that has made its way on to a forum has been handled in a timely fashion, with a professional, friendly tone--as it should be.

And for the record, I've bought parts from F-P and FS, along with HKS, and designing my own turbo system, so I'm not just a FS fanboi.

I dont know Tom why is anyone to believe what you say about external waste gate,blowthrough and choice of turbos for this application.You had a chance to prove the benefits of all that with your Duratec turbo kit. But instead it ended up being an undriveable unreliable nightmare for the owner and what did that cost $5000.00 hmmm after that buck arent you all.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7836/48343254.jpg


AHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WOW

You did read that he took it to a mustang tuner to get it tuned and then thats when everything went to shit. if he would of contacted Tom he would of been fine LOL

AHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WOW

You did read that he took it to a mustang tuner to get it tuned and then thats when everything went to shit. if he would of contacted Tom he would of been fine LOL

Nope it had problems from the get go from what the owner said the mustang tuner put the final nail in it .He ended up getting rid of it on Ebay.

I dont know Tom why is anyone to believe what you say about external waste gate,blowthrough and choice of turbos for this application.You had a chance to prove the benefits of all that with your Duratec turbo kit. But instead it ended up being an undriveable unreliable nightmare for the owner and what did that cost $5000.00 hmmm after that buck arent you all.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7836/48343254.jpg


Lets get the facts straight , the customer you are talking about DID NOT have any issues till he went for more boost and had a worthless tuner kill his engine , He even posted this exact statement in the ebay auction when he sold the car , Im sure by choise you were looking when the OWNER stated the real facts not just the ones fj talked about

On top of that the Turbocharged 2.0 Duratec I did with stock intake , stock cams , stock TB , made as good or better power at the same boost against what a 2.3 , cosworth intake , custom cams , larger TB . Numbers between the 2 shouldnt of even been close so I do beleive I know what I am talking about and what it take to make reliable HP/TQ

You can twist the truith all you want but if you dont know the facts please dont bash me just because the morons on fj said things , Try to show a little class even tho you dont know what your talking about

Tom

Tom

Nope it had problems from the get go from what the owner said the mustang tuner put the final nail in it .He ended up getting rid of it on Ebay.

Guess what Ik Tom would of taking care of the guy cause Tom has helped me fix a couple problems and has gone out of his way for more then just me. dont come in here talking like superman and forget to leave out the detail it makes you look that much worse.(not a personal threat just my opinion)

Nope it had problems from the get go from what the owner said the mustang tuner put the final nail in it .He ended up getting rid of it on Ebay.

Please show me where he said that ?Not what some one else said he said but where Denny him self said it had problems from the start

Tom

Honestly I'm tired of people that have there one favorite compain and have nothing but bad things to say about any other compainy. I'm honestly don't waisting my energy on this. Go ahead and say what you want. Doesn't make it any more true or false. Its the internet after all. People can post what they want.

Honestly i dont blame you man.

Lets get the facts straight , the customer you are talking about DID NOT have any issues till he went for more boost and had a worthless tuner kill his engine , He even posted this exact statement in the ebay auction when he sold the car , Im sure by choise you were looking when the OWNER stated the real facts not just the ones fj talked about

On top of that the Turbocharged 2.0 Duratec I did with stock intake , stock cams , stock TB , made as good or better power at the same boost against what a 2.3 , cosworth intake , custom cams , larger TB . Numbers between the 2 shouldnt of even been close so I do beleive I know what I am talking about and what it take to make reliable HP/TQ

You can twist the truith all you want but if you dont know the facts please dont bash me just because the morons on fj said things , Try to show a little class even tho you dont know what your talking about

Tom

Tom

Do you really want me to point you to the links to the facts with what the owner really said because i can do that.Fact is you kept his car for 2 damn years and it was not right when he got it back.And that car had a built bottom end (forged internals)by you did it not?

Guess what Ik Tom would of taking care of the guy cause Tom has helped me fix a couple problems and has gone out of his way for more then just me. dont come in here talking like superman and forget to leave out the detail it makes you look that much worse.(not a personal threat just my opinion)

There is a reason he only made the one duratec kit.Do you need it spelled out for you.

Yes it did take me 2 years to build it , I had to have custom rods made 8 months to get built the first ones wrong , pistons made after getting the rods 4 months , make a custom turbo kit and test , tuning that was only being bata tested 2 months , changed turbos , clutch that wasent out yet 3 months , there were NO parts for this engine then , he knew this when he brought it , I think I still have the only billet rods for the 2.0 duratec engine unless anyone knows of others IN STOCK

But you guys didnt bring up any of that , you just make it sound like I didnt do anything to it for 1 year and 10 months because you enjoy bashing me

Again you dont know what your talking about , I have built other Dura turbo Focus and Ranger kits

Tom

Ya umm didnt it do like 300whp on like 11psi damn must be hard to swallow well unless your use to that kind of stuff LMAO.

R&D is to be done BEFORE final release of the product, not AFTER. Using customers as a test bed for your product is not a good way to instill confidence in your customer base, nor is having shoddy customer service practices. It's a pretty simple concept.

Until F2 (or anyone else) can put fourth a product that is of the same quality as FSWerks, with the same customer service, fit, finish, and price, I'll continue to recommend them.

I haven't done business with F2, and after all of the horror stories I hear, I won't. Every issue there has been with FSWerks that has made its way on to a forum has been handled in a timely fashion, with a professional, friendly tone--as it should be.

And for the record, I've bought parts from F-P and FS, along with HKS, and designing my own turbo system, so I'm not just a FS fanboi.

I agree 100% and I will be the first to say its crappy as I did the first time it was posted with a parts list , BUT they should at the least have the chance to correct the issues and see if they can pull it off , If not then fs

Tom

Ya umm didnt it do like 300whp on like 11psi damn must be hard to swallow well unless your use to that kind of stuff LMAO.

It may have but it certainly never did for the owner of that car.

Alright the issue with F2 isn't the parts. I've had the kit for a year now and non of the turbo parts have broken. Again the only reason the kit isn't on the market anymore is because they are switching turbo suppliers. Thats it. Also if you don't like there tune buy the non tuned kit and go get your own tune.. maybe from Tom here. I'm sure he would like the business.

It may have but it certainly never did for the owner of that car.

Ok so if the owner of that car dropped it off and his car put down over 300 how did it not do it for him. just stop you look like a fool (this is me being nice)

Ok so if the owner of that car dropped it off and his car put down over 300 how did it not do it for him. just stop you look like a fool (this is me being nice)

I thought Tom dyno it at 280 when he had it i could be wrong though.Do you have a duratec turbo are just here to hang on Toms sack.(this is me being nice)

Douche bag i have built plenty of turbo manifold form hondas to mustangs and i build mustangs and engines. you have been cheerleading for FS since you have there kit go to fj and continue you cant imagine a kit better then what you have you have you oblivious to everything about any other kit. either be quiet cause you have no clue what your talking about or go cheerleading with the others. im sure you dont have a problem with that

Please pm me if you would like to get bitch slapped LOL or better yet call me. pm me for my number.

I thought Tom dyno it at 280 when he had it i could be wrong though.Do you have a duratec turbo are just here to hang on Toms sack.(this is me being nice)



Yes your wrong again what a surprise [limp]

http://focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146133&highlight=duratec+turbo

Hey tom hope you dont mind if you do jus tell me

Douche bag i have built plenty of turbo manifold form hondas to mustangs and i build mustangs and engines. you have been cheerleading for FS since you have there kit go to fj and continue you cant imagine a kit better then what you have you have you oblivious to everything about any other kit. either be quiet cause you have no clue what your talking about or go cheerleading with the others. im sure you dont have a problem with that

Please pm me if you would like to get bitch slapped LOL or better yet call me. pm me for my number.

Umm thats what i thought.

That did you think lol

Yes your wrong again what a surprise [limp]

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146133&highlight=duratec+turbo

Hey tom hope you dont mind if you do jus tell me

And did Tom return it runing on 12PSI.Like i said it never made that for the owner of that car.

Dont know that much ask him yourself im not gonna say something idk

on another note im glad your on cause i was bored sitting here. then you came on an now im entertained lol :)

That did you think lol
That you have no duratec and just sack swinging.

Dont know that much ask him yourself im not gonna say something idk

on another note im glad your on cause i was bored sitting here. then you came on an now im entertained lol :)

Yea i already know.

Nice car btw checked out the pictures.

Dont need a duratec have plenty of friends with them and will being doing a tubular top mount on Evans (warneej) and will be doing a side mount like a k-series on Josh's dont tell me i need a duratec to know about them or turbos lol I love internet mechanics thats if you even own a snap on or better yet a screw driver

Yea i already know.

Nice car btw checked out the pictures.

Thanks [headbang]

True performance at its best ? ? ? ? ? read what I posted above at its best wouldnt mean cheap OEM turbos , suck through MAF , Internal waste gate , Its people like you that I posted above what I posted

As for the years of R&D just how many years R&D do you think fs did on this kit before they released there very first kit , R&D means they learned things and made changes , what were they

F2 is doing true R&D right now and your bashing them for it

Tom

yeah, F2 is doing R&D alright... ON A CUSTOMER'S CAR!!! F2 has been trying to piece together a duratec turbo kit for 5 years now and they still can't get it right.

Yay, friends [:)].

So the consensus is that F2 just needs to get things rolling and they will easily compete with FS. Does that sum up the thread, lol.

Douche bag i have built plenty of turbo manifold form hondas to mustangs and i build mustangs and engines. you have been cheerleading for FS since you have there kit go to fj and continue you cant imagine a kit better then what you have you have you oblivious to everything about any other kit. either be quiet cause you have no clue what your talking about or go cheerleading with the others. im sure you dont have a problem with that

Please pm me if you would like to get bitch slapped LOL or better yet call me. pm me for my number.

Pure douchebag! Quite drinking Tom's kool-aid and WTF are you even doing in this thread. This is about the duratec kit! There's only one reason you're in this thread. That brown on your nose says it all!

Do you 2 really think calling people douchebag is needed , You 2 talk about people hanging around me just what is it you 2 are doing ? I wouldnt call it adding any good info to what they guy asked for , neither one of you have done anything more then bash F2 or me and for no reason

Tom

yeah, F2 is doing R&D alright... ON A CUSTOMER'S CAR!!! F2 has been trying to piece together a duratec turbo kit for 5 years now and they still can't get it right.

Accually they aren't R&Ding on a customers car. I do believe I'm the customer your talking about. My tune is a bit off yet but that will be fixed this weekend. F2 has just started in house tuning and I have dyno time reserved. F2 found a few faults with there old tuners tune and have started doing in house tuning since they have there own tuner now. I will be doing a comparision for F2 between the master power turbo and comp turbo since I'm somewhat local to them. They haven't gotten the new turbos from comp yet. They are finishing some of the custom stuff on the turbo itseft for the F2 kit. The masterpower set isn't bad, however the comp turbo they will be using will have a better spool up. So to correct you F2 hasn't been trying to peice together a kit for the past 5 years. They are perfecting a good kit they already had. True they haven't had it on the market that long but if there masterpower turbo supplier did there job they would have to switch turbo companies. So there are the solid facts. Stop listening to hear say and go to the source.

Do you 2 really think calling people douchebag is needed , You 2 talk about people hanging around me just what is it you 2 are doing ? I wouldnt call it adding any good info to what they guy asked for , neither one of you have done anything more then bash F2 or me and for no reason

Tom

Im not bashing you Tom i actually like your diy kit for the Zetec and read excellent feedback on it. But i will never buy anything from you are that you make because you have to be a total ass. Ill go with the Top Speed Performance kit when the time comes.

Problem is Mave they dont car about the facts , they want to bash F2 reguardless of what the facts are

Tom

I wouldnt call it adding any good info to what they guy asked for , neither one of you have done anything more then bash F2 or me and for no reason

Tom

So it's ok for everyone to try and bash FS.... but if someone talks you or F2 down then it's wrong??? .... [scratch]

And I love how people supporting F2 don't have their facts straight and are contradicting each other. [scratch]

F2 started working on their kit years ago, so don't say they don't have the time in. They pulled their kit due to major issues (I know of at least 2 that were returned and 1 that was never delivered but declined).

Tom... I will openly admit that I do not have the knowledge that you do about turbos and cars. But I can say that given the time you had with that car that you could have done so much more. When did you get the car??? 2006??? and you say there weren't engine / trans parts available??? C'mon... be real.

Now onto FS. I may have an internal wastegate, what you call a cheap OEM turbo, and whatever else. But I also have a trouble free 270whp turbocharged car with a bulletproof tune and also awesome customer support and the number of an actual business / office I can call. Not someones cell phone number that they can choose to answer or ignore.

How many awards do you have that have been presented to you by auto manufacturers??? How many Sema shows have you participated in??? How many Ford documentaries have been filmed at your business???

Guys... you really should open your eyes and stop drinking the Kool-Aid... Tom has an incredible amount of knowledge and good information, but he doesn't know everything.

Im not bashing you Tom i actually like your diy kit for the Zetec and read excellent feedback on it. But i will never buy anything from you are that you make because you have to be a total ass. Ill go with the Top Speed Performance kit when the time comes.

You go to who ever you want , your car your money your choice to go second best , I personally dont want or need customers like you and yes you were bashing me and have been doing it for some time

You need to go back over what was said to who here then come back and tell me who was being the azz

Tom

Sema shows and ford documentaries don't have anything to do with the quality of product. You don't see massive, CFM, or and other companies like that doing those things. Also I have my facts straight because I'm USING and F2 turbo setup. I'm also the one that had problems and in my opinion F2 has some of the best customer service around. I am also NOT bashing or speaking down on FSWerks. I like both companies. I have products from both companies on the same car. Also from what I've read know one is contradicting them selfs about F2. Honestly quit bashing. It isn't very adult like in anyway and just make you look like a smaller person. Me I don't bash I talk about the facts of a product I own. How many people here talking down about the F2 turbo kit have ever installed it on there own car. I bet you not a one.

You go to who ever you want , your car your money your choice to go second best , I personally dont want or need customers like you and yes you were bashing me and have been doing it for some time

You need to go back over what was said to who here then come back and tell me who was being the azz

Tom

Come on now Tom i have all the PM's you ever sent me to prove what an ass you really are and you know it.

And even though i like your diy kit the quality doesnt even come close to the Top Speed kit get real man.

F2 did NOT pull there kit for any issues other than they are switching turbo companies. People get that straight.

But you gotta give credit to ricardo and team, they did what was right and pulled it off the market once problems were discovered.

Hmm.... so which is it???? Turbo change??? or Problems???



Sema shows and ford documentaries don't have anything to do with the quality of product. You don't see massive, CFM, or and other companies like that doing those things. Also I have my facts straight because I'm USING and F2 turbo setup. I'm also the one that had problems and in my opinion F2 has some of the best customer service around. I am also NOT bashing or speaking down on FSWerks. I like both companies. I have products from both companies on the same car. Also from what I've read know one is contradicting them selfs about F2. Honestly quit bashing. It isn't very adult like in anyway and just make you look like a smaller person. Me I don't bash I talk about the facts of a product I own. How many people here talking down about the F2 turbo kit have ever installed it on there own car. I bet you not a one.

I am not bashing, I am stating facts. And actually... Massive and lots of other Focus related companies do participate in SEMA (including F2 at one point).

As far as the awards and the documentary... I don't think Ford just randomly shows up at peoples doors. I am pretty sure you need to do something pretty impressive to get attention like that.

No but look at howmany companies make aftermarket ford products. Alot. Some good some bad. Yes only very few may get an award. Thats cool and everything for that company, however that does mean everyone else makes horrable products. Maybe they came in a close second. Who truely knows except for the ones giving the award.

No but look at howmany companies make aftermarket ford products. Alot. Some good some bad. Yes only very few may get an award. Thats cool and everything for that company, however that does mean everyone else makes horrable products. Maybe they came in a close second. Who truely knows except for the ones giving the award.

Duratec Turbo kits????

No... and again I haven't said that F2's product is junk. I have simply stated FACTS about all the products.

just because you dont like the answers tom gives u doesn't mean he's an ass. he responds simply and accurately to your questions the best he can do.. you have to understand that tom has a LOT of ###'s bounching around in his head and he KNOWS the answer and tries to explain the best he can what he knows.

Once I started tuning with tom he immediately was sending me files to start working with, helped me with SCT issues, was on IM till 11PM at night with me, Called me when IM wasn't clear enough of an answer. I have had issues with having the time to do the remote tuning and whenever I have the chnce we pick up right where we left off. thats pretty good considering he has 5-6 different people at one time to keep track of and he is remote tuning my car.

if he says it;s a good kit, wait for it, then do that and see how it is.

TIRED of seeing people just bash his ass after he tells you he thinks something is good or not. he gave his opinion and then u don't like it...wtf.....

don't go bashing tom.

I do think it is hard to state a fact about a product that you haven't ever layed hands on. I have seen the FSW kit upclose but never used a car with one or had it installed on my car. So all I truely know about the kit is what comes with it and that people owning it like it. I can't put my personaly opion out about the kit. I have no justification for it. When you review a product you have to be completely bias on the product. You can't look at it knowing you might not like the company from someone elses point of view. Thats why I have never commenting on my liking or dislike any one elses products I have never uses. Also that award I believe your talking about was awarded from Garret. F2 doesn't use Garret turbos so they can't get that award. If there is a award from Ford good job on FSW.

I do think it is hard to state a fact about a product that you haven't ever layed hands on. I have seen the FSW kit upclose but never used a car with one or had it installed on my car. So all I truely know about the kit is what comes with it and that people owning it like it. I can't put my personaly opion out about the kit. I have no justification for it. When you review a product you have to be completely bias on the product. You can't look at it knowing you might not like the company from someone elses point of view. Thats why I have never commenting on my liking or dislike any one elses products I have never uses. Also that award I believe your talking about was awarded from Garret. F2 doesn't use Garret turbos so they can't get that award. If there is a award from Ford good job on FSW.

They have recieved an award from Ford Motor Company at SEMA.

Actually... besides the Garrett cert, and winning the STC, I am pretty sure they have been granted awards.... 3 times at SEMA from Ford.

It's not hard to state a fact about an item you don't own, use, or have seen. It's called gathering accurate information and reporting it.

Again... I am not bashing F2... I am simply stating facts about one of their products and their customer support.


Edit: Ford also used FSW to introduce the Fiesta. I am sure they just won that in a random drawing though.

They have recieved an award from Ford Motor Company at SEMA.

Yea,correction they have received THREE Ford Design Awards from SEMA.

Anyways awards aside which by the way is awsome for FSW, That doesn't determane if a company isn't worth doing business with, or if the products are crap.

Anyways awards aside which by the way is awsome for FSW, That doesn't determane if a company isn't worth doing business with, or if the products are crap.

No... it doesn't. But putting out poor quality products, not backing them, and not helping your customers does determine who I will and will not do business with.

Anyways awards aside which by the way is awsome for FSW, That doesn't determane if a company isn't worth doing business with, or if the products are crap.

It sure does show at least one company is doing something right though.To be awarded time and time again by Ford freaking Motor Company.

I hate to post in this thread war but......

-props to FSWerks for making a duratec turbo kit with great success.
-props to F2 for trying to make more options available to us duratec owners.
-props to Tom for supporting the focus community and offering his knowledge to everyone on the forum.

I wish the FSwerks VS F2 turbo kit war would just end. Can the mods lock this thread or delete it or something.

my .02 for today.

F2 had a flame designed ZX3 at SEMA back in 2004 that had a turbo. It didn't make boost however. It's taken them 5 years.... FIVE YEARS..... FIVE YEARS... and the kit still isn't working.... fail!

Chris Stout waited on F2 for a year on his SEMA focus build and eventually got tired of F2 "moving at the speed of Recardo" so he went with the FSWERKS kit.

I just don't see why anyone would spend so much money on a turbo kit that hasn't even had the kinks worked out. A kit that hasn't even been tested. I guess someone has to be the Guinea Pig. FSWERKS did it the right way by working w/ the kit on their own cars and getting the kit dialed in a perfect before putting it on the market. Every time a new engine design comes out, they build it again to make sure the kits are top notch.

just because you dont like the answers tom gives u doesn't mean he's an ass. he responds simply and accurately to your questions the best he can do.. you have to understand that tom has a LOT of ###'s bounching around in his head and he KNOWS the answer and tries to explain the best he can what he knows.

Once I started tuning with tom he immediately was sending me files to start working with, helped me with SCT issues, was on IM till 11PM at night with me, Called me when IM wasn't clear enough of an answer. I have had issues with having the time to do the remote tuning and whenever I have the chnce we pick up right where we left off. thats pretty good considering he has 5-6 different people at one time to keep track of and he is remote tuning my car.

if he says it;s a good kit, wait for it, then do that and see how it is.

TIRED of seeing people just bash his ass after he tells you he thinks something is good or not. he gave his opinion and then u don't like it...wtf.....

don't go bashing tom.

ummm... yeah, you have a SVT! Not a Duratec! Tom knows SVT so I'm not surprised. That is no way, shape, or form related to this thread.

No... it doesn't. But putting out poor quality products, not backing them, and not helping your customers does determine who I will and will not do business with.

I agree!

Guys... you really should open your eyes and stop drinking the Kool-Aid... Tom has an incredible amount of knowledge and good information, but he doesn't know everything.

What kool-Aid , awards and things through Ford are nothing more then add gimiks , I am not an azz kisser and wouldnt bend over for the free cars and quick trips to make Ford look better at sema , I will leave that to fs and Co that never get out and actually do anything with there cars but dyno queens and glory hounds

I will take things like the #1 Qualifier at ALL Focus Fun Ford Weekends for 4 years straight 8 races a year in 8 states
10 sec pass with a street legal 2.0 Focus
3 years Focus event at VIR runnign my car all weekend each year and having the fastest Focus at each event
First to hit 300 , 400 , 500 , 600 , 700 HP with the Zetec
First to hit 300 stock engine SVT

I have had the Beast in a few glory shots but there was no bend over that went with it
Center fold in MM&FF
39 other times in MM&FF pictured/write ups
Center fold in Sport compact car
Center Fold in Tire Rack
30 Min on TV My Classic Cars
On TV with Hot Rod TV at Bristol
Only Focus to be in Hot Rod Mag
June Calander My Ford Parts
And I dont even remember the others

I actually go out there and used my car and did all the way from 2000 to 2007 with hundreds of 1/4 mile and 1/8 mile passes , hundreds of laps on open tracks events all over

Just because you dont know about them does not mean I havent been around

Tom

F2 had a flame designed ZX3 at SEMA back in 2004 that had a turbo. It didn't make boost however. It's taken them 5 years.... FIVE YEARS..... FIVE YEARS... and the kit still isn't working.... fail!

I hate to correct you YET again. The kit does work. Again I have a working F2 turbo kit istalled in MY CAR. So you FAIL. Quit bashing. If you like FSW good for you.

Boy these guys must really be worried , they contacted each other and got all of them (well almost all of them) here and trying there best to make the fs kit look good

Calm down guy, I know fs needs all the help they can get but give it a chance and see what they come up with . it may be nothing and you can stop worrying

Tom

I hate to correct you YET again. The kit does work. Again I have a working F2 turbo kit istalled in MY CAR. So you FAIL. Quit bashing. If you like FSW good for you.

You have told them this 3 times now , they dont care there not here for facts or to hear what some one that actually has the F2 kit has to say , they have drank the kool-aid they talk about so much and blinded with bad kool-aid and misinformation

Tom

I actually go out there and used my car and did all the way from 2000 to 2007 with hundreds of 1/4 mile and 1/8 mile passes , hundreds of laps on open tracks events all over

Just because you dont know about them does not mean I havent been around

I never said you haven't... and to be honest that is quite an impressive list and I give props to you for your accomplishments. I believe in the post (which you even quoted) I payed you a compliment. You have, and still do, give a lot of good information to this community. You did the same when you were on FJ. As I also stated however, you don't know everything there is to know.

As far as FS is concerned with running their cars, I know of an SVT and a white turbo ZX3 that were track whores for quite some time. As well as the STC car that was built for that purpose. I even think the white ZX3 managed to get dumped onto some low budget video game...

blah blah blah I'm Tom, I have accomplished more than FSWERKS and they're gay dyno queens blah blah blah I have the fastest focus blah blah blah I'm the bestest blah blah blah

I think you're just jealous Tom that Focus-Power never has been and never will be as successful as FSWERKS.

and yes Tom, people are drinking your kool-aid.

^[:)][:)][:)][:)] u damn NEWB wannabe ass.

how long have u had a focus??? a YEAR???

you don't have enough seat time in a focus to say what tuner is good and what tuner is crap.....really....

I hate to correct you YET again. The kit does work. Again I have a working F2 turbo kit istalled in MY CAR. So you FAIL. Quit bashing. If you like FSW good for you.

Um, good for you! You are the only one in 5 years! YOU are the guinea pig! YOUR focus is the test subject! So you FAIL! My turbo kit is actually tuned it correctly! So again, you FAIL!

It's not hard to state a fact about an item you don't own, use, or have seen. It's called gathering accurate information and reporting it.


Well the guy here in this post is telling you that he has the F2 kit and you have gathered inaccurate information and reporting misinformation and you wont listen to him

Your here to do nothing more then stir the pot

Tom

Well if Tom wasn't succesfuly I don't think people would go to him for products or tuning. I personally won't mind him tuning my car. But lets look. Everyone who is hating on the competion has a FSWerks turbo kit in there sig. So you don't know the other companies parts like the F2 turbo kit. So no hands on = no experiance with there kit, which in most peoples eyes doesn't account for much.

I hate to correct you YET again. The kit does work. Again I have a working F2 turbo kit istalled in MY CAR. So you FAIL. Quit bashing. If you like FSW good for you.

So your kit works...congrats... 1 of how many produced?

Again... I know of 3 others... (2 returned, 1 never accepted after waiting a year)...

How many kits are out there right now running around???

Well the guy here in this post is telling you that he has the F2 kit and you have gathered inaccurate information and reporting misinformation and you wont listen to him

Your here to do nothing more then stir the pot

Tom

He has the kit.... great... as stated I know of 2 that were returned, and 1 never accepted. That is not misinformation, that is fact. And what are you doing in this thread besides stirring the pot?

blah blah blah I'm Tom, I have accomplished more than FSWERKS and they're gay dyno queens blah blah blah I have the fastest focus blah blah blah I'm the bestest blah blah blah

I think you're just jealous Tom that Focus-Power never has been and never will be as successful as FSWERKS.

and yes Tom, people are drinking your kool-aid.

I guess you measure success different then I do , I am living in a House on the beach in Mexico retired at 47 years old . To me thats being successful

Tom

Well the guy here in this post is telling you that he has the F2 kit and you have gathered inaccurate information and reporting misinformation and you wont listen to him

Your here to do nothing more then stir the pot

Tom

Its been in the shop several months out of that year he has had it though.Blown engine,tune not right,wrong charge pipe are some shit.Ive had my FS kit for the same amount of time installed it Randy tuned it and not a single problem in over a year.

Well if Tom wasn't succesfuly I don't think people would go to him for products or tuning. I personally won't mind him tuning my car. But lets look. Everyone who is hating on the competion has a FSWerks turbo kit in there sig. So you don't know the other companies parts like the F2 turbo kit. So no hands on = no experiance with there kit, which in most peoples eyes doesn't account for much.

Are you really that ignorant??? or are you simply not reading my posts???

1. I paid Tom a compliment on his knowledge, achievements, and what he has contributed over the years.

2. I never said the kits were junk, used cheap parts (as Tom did), or anything else, other than the fact that I kew of people who had issues with them and returned / refused them.

I guess you measure success different then I do , I am living in a House on the beach in Mexico retired at 47 years old . To me thats being successful

Tom

Are you retired i thought you were still churning out diy kits and tunes.[scratch]

he is remote tuning still. also a DIY kit. he is proven in those areas and he thankfully keeps doing both.

Um, good for you! You are the only one in 5 years! YOU are the guinea pig! YOUR focus is the test subject! So you FAIL! My turbo kit is actually tuned it correctly! So again, you FAIL!

My car was with in only a couple HP of one FSW car with almost the same setup on a "bad tune". That was on the FSW dyno. Also my focus isn't the test subject or a guinea pig. What proof do you have on that. I will admit I lost the rings on piston 4. A week later had a engine with even less miles on if for free since it wasn't my fault. Been running the kit now for almost a year WITHOUT any problems. The tune is a bit off and I'm getting somewhat bad MPG. 28 MPG that is. Thats really the only bad part of my tune. Also now that I have my new clutch and diff that have been installed by F2 I'm ready to up the boost. Also to adjust my power fall off which we setup to save my OEM clutch. If we didn't do that to my tune I would have been without a car because I would have burned up my clutch due to to much power. I know plenty of FSW customers that burned up there OEM clutch. Both companies even tell there customers they recommend upgrading the clutch. F2 did something to prevent clutch failure with there kit. I haven't seen a single company focus related or not that would do that for there customers. I will be more than happy to post my new dyno sheet once we are done on saturday. It will also be done on a dynojet I do believe.

he is remote tuning still. also a DIY kit. he is proven in those areas and he thankfully keeps doing both.

Yes... for the Zetec! NOT THE DURATEC! He's in here for nothing more than stirring the dust further!

Are you really that ignorant??? or are you simply not reading my posts???

1. I paid Tom a compliment on his knowledge, achievements, and what he has contributed over the years.

2. I never said the kits were junk, used cheap parts (as Tom did), or anything else, other than the fact that I kew of people who had issues with them and returned / refused them.

Sorry for the misunder standing. I wasn't talking about your post.

actally smithboy, he posted originally to give updated info about the duratec kits. so he has every right to be in here.

.Ive had my FS kit for the same amount of time installed it Randy tuned it and not a single problem in over a year.

Thats great , you like your kit as you should , it isnt the only kit out there anymore and leave an open mind that there may be something equal or better coming out is all anyone is asking , why is that so hard to understand ?

Tom

Yes... for the Zetec! NOT THE DURATEC! He's in here for nothing more than stirring the dust further!

I tune the Duratec as well and may do a DIY kit for the Duratec engine now that there is a Cast manifold with a external wast gate for them , that reason enough for you ?

Tom

Thats great , you like your kit as you should , it isnt the only kit out there anymore and leave an open mind that there may be something equal or better coming out is all anyone is asking , why is that so hard to understand ?

Tom

Um, actually it is the only kit available out there. Remember, F2 pulled theirs! lol derrrr

Come on we both know its coming and you have been told about 5 times in here he will know more this Saturday

Tom

Honestly your not going to make me mad that you don't like F2. Personally I like them. I also like Massive, FSW, CFM, HTP, Tom here, and a few others I don't care to mention at this time. I'm not apart of the F2 shop, nor getting paid by them to support there products. The only thing I have bout from them is there turbo kit and there 2.5" Stainless steel exhaust which both are great quality. Yes I had a problem with the turbo early on. That problem what dealt with swiftly. I really don't care if you like them, don't like them, or even dispise them. If your going to comment on there product you should have ateast a minium or having hands on with it.

As I have stated in the past. I will let anyone that is willing to travel to my location some hands on with my car. I will even let them behind the wheel. I would even do that if I build the kit myself which was my first option I was considering. So if your in the Socal area and would like the see the kit first hand PM me. I will be more than happy to let you see if so you can have a first person review instead of hearing from hear say.

PS: Good night. I'm going to get some rest. I'll update you all when we are done with my car saturday. Other than that I seem to be repeating myself. I guess some people just don't care to listen to others.

Thats great , you like your kit as you should , it isnt the only kit out there anymore and leave an open mind that there may be something equal or better coming out is all anyone is asking , why is that so hard to understand ?

Tom

Right now it is the ONLY kit out there.There may be something equal or better coming out some people may not want to wait that long to find out.How long have they been saying there supercharger kit is coming out 5 years now.

At least 5

and I also buy stuff from F2. I have their RS widebody kit!

Ok , I am taking my unsuccessful azz and going out about 7 miles to King Grouper fish till morning

You guys have a great night

Tom

Ok , I am taking my unsuccessful azz and going out about 7 miles to King Grouper fish till morning

You guys have a great night

Tom

Be safe.[thumb]

Ok , I am taking my unsuccessful azz and going out about 7 miles to King Grouper fish till morning

You guys have a great night

Tom


enjoy the fishing

[popcorn] anyone...

^^[werd][popcorn]....

FS Werks has the only complete duratec kit out there right now, it's as simple as that. We've have all heard that F2 is coming out with one someday, but there is no way to know when that will be. A month, a year, who knows. If you want to boost now, you go with FS Werks. If you are in no hurry, well then go ahead and wait it out to compare the two.

And products aside, what about customer service. For those who have bought items from both companies, what was the turn around time? For me, my items shipped within a couple days at FSWerks, and they have promptly returned EVERY email or message I've ever left them. At F2, it took over a month, and they ignored 90% of my emails. Ricardo seems like a nice person, but they just need some help over there.

^^[werd][popcorn]....

Hey rob does your have butter lol[popcorn]

^^[werd][popcorn]....

Hey rob does your have butter lol[popcorn]

Mine does with cheddar popcorn seasoning! [popcorn]

pshhhh....i gots da kettle korn yo!

Mine does with cheddar popcorn seasoning! [popcorn]

Damn charles wanna share I'm not baller status enough for that :(

rob I got the caramel kind mmmmmmm [neener]


Let's see how off topic this thread can get lol
zetec>duratec lol

stock > than turbo :-P
[lockdance][lockdance][lockdance][lockdance][lockdance]

EDIT: is it just me or do the lockdance smiles have the same dance as Brian from Family Guy doing the peanut butter jelly time dance?

you know none of this helped flee at all...makes you wonder if he is still loking at this thread.

and yes they do look like they are doing the same dance

i figured this thread would end up getting trashed with buttered popcorn....

...yet another thread ruined....LOL.

in before the lock, cause this shizzle is DEAD....

Yes someone please lock this thread.

It hasn't helped the op since page two. Some live to trash others

nice

does anyone have an svt maf housing for sale?

Rofl.....