So, I have recently installed a torsen, and been to one auto-x with it, but i get the feeling that im not driving its full potential, so my question is how do you drive your torsen?

as far as i can tell, accelerating in a corner can yield 3 outcomes:

1) low throttle

the outer wheel will need to rotate more quickly relative to the differential, and the inner wheel will rotate more slowly than the differential. Friction in the differential will oppose motion, and that will work to slow the faster side and 'speed up' the slower/inner side.

this has no tire slip, but the car tries to go straight a little bit

2) medium throttle

When the inner tire (which has less traction due to weight transfer from lateral acceleration) is overpowered, it angularly accelerates up to the outer wheel speed (small percent wheel spin) and the differential locks.

in this case the inner tire is spinning the same speed as the outer (slipping against the pavement) but the outer tire gets lots of torque and might also pull the car around the corner

3) full throttle

both tires spin and car understeer heavily.



So, outcome 3 is an obvious NO, but what is faster 1 or 2?

Also, if you have any tips or tricks to extract the most out of my torsen at an auto-x. (im also curious about on driving on snow/ice like a rally-x)

I had a Quaife in my GTI. I'm not exactly sure I'm following your scenarios, but I can tell you from many, many corners with mine, which it is functionally different than a Torsen, that you want the inside tire wanting to spin to get the most out of the outside tire. It just sounds to me like you need to master the point at which you stop braking, shift the body, and start punching the gas. There's no reason IMO that a front wheel drive 4-cyl of any HP should be modulating the throttle in a corner unless you are braking too late. A classic indication of late braking is that understeer and spinning wheels under hard throttle that you speak of. My personal opinion is that: how hard you brake, when you brake, when you stop braking, is the hardest part to learn.

braking is not a problem for me, and I know i need to adjust where i start accelerating (ie. earlier). I am a very competant fast auto-xer, its just that i've never had a LSD and am trying to learn from some people of experience.

I guess i could simplify the question. Should i let the inside tire spin or not?

braking is not a problem for me, and I know i need to adjust where i start accelerating (ie. earlier). I am a very competant fast auto-xer, its just that i've never had a LSD and am trying to learn from some people of experience.

I guess i could simplify the question. Should i let the inside tire spin or not?

OK, so it WILL spin. I was not able to get any spin no matter what in the GTI. I really don't know enough about the Torsen to say anything. I would think some spin would be better than not in a FWD.

I have the Quaife and I, like Robotaz, can tell you, it's a different ballgame going in hot and downshifting and then smacking the throttle hard. I can tell just when this diff is helping and when it's hurting. If it's hurting, it's most likely becuase I screwed up. The way it helps is.....let's say I hit a hard turn and I'm in third running.....uh.....40 mph. I keep it in third and go WOT and the car seems to understeer a little but is slugish. Same scenario, but I hit the turn and jam it into second and go WOT.......this time I feel the car pull itself into the direction of the turn just like it should and I come out of the turn VERY HOT and going much faster than when I went in.

I don't know all the technical terms on this, so I appologize for being so crude with my explaination, but I do know that I have never driven a FWD with a locking diff and I will never own another without one. [;)] I live in the Mtn's of NC and if you've ever been here, you know just how shitty the roads are and how one minute it may be flat, the next it may be a hairpin turn and a steep grade either up or down. This place must be an Auto-X'ers wet dream. It's mine anyhow!

I'd love to try my hand on a track just to see what I could do. I grew up running/road racing FWD's around here and I consider myself........decent (I don't want to say good or something bad will happen) at going through the tight roads up here but I figure that a track will be a different story as I am sure it's mostly flat and I would probably suck. [:D]

I usually just hold it to the floor going through corners............

I have the Quaife and I, like Robotaz, can tell you, it's a different ballgame going in hot and downshifting and then smacking the throttle hard. I can tell just when this diff is helping and when it's hurting. If it's hurting, it's most likely becuase I screwed up. The way it helps is.....let's say I hit a hard turn and I'm in third running.....uh.....40 mph. I keep it in third and go WOT and the car seems to understeer a little but is slugish. Same scenario, but I hit the turn and jam it into second and go WOT.......this time I feel the car pull itself into the direction of the turn just like it should and I come out of the turn VERY HOT and going much faster than when I went in.

I don't know all the technical terms on this, so I appologize for being so crude with my explaination, but I do know that I have never driven a FWD with a locking diff and I will never own another without one. [;)] I live in the Mtn's of NC and if you've ever been here, you know just how shitty the roads are and how one minute it may be flat, the next it may be a hairpin turn and a steep grade either up or down. This place must be an Auto-X'ers wet dream. It's mine anyhow!

I'd love to try my hand on a track just to see what I could do. I grew up running/road racing FWD's around here and I consider myself........decent (I don't want to say good or something bad will happen) at going through the tight roads up here but I figure that a track will be a different story as I am sure it's mostly flat and I would probably suck. [:D]

When you describe going into the turn in a lower gear and the car pulling itself out, that's exactly what I'm talking about. If you're driving the car correctly, it will turn better at WOT, at least from my experience in a VW, not a Focus. It feels weird in a FWD downshifting the right way, right before you hit the throttle in a turn, IMO. It feels much more natural how the rear end in a RWD wants to just slightly drift out when you're downshifting aggressively. When you get used to it, the rear end pretty much feels like it's preparing itself for the turn by there being more resistance from the rear. To get that effect in a FWD, you should feel the rear sort of pushing on the front as the front causes the resistance. It's hard to describe, but the Quaife can be driven very, very hard. In fact, I had a friend with a Porsche 928 and a friend with a Camaro SS (90's) and neither could hang with me in the twisties because they couldn't control the rear end like I was able to control my front end. The higher the revs in the corner, the more it pull itself through the turns. No V8 RWD could hang with me. Now, in the straights, they smoked me. Plain and simple.

That's exactly what I am talking about. When I'm REALLY on it, I am running close to redline in the hard turns. When doing this with the Focus/Quaife, I feel certain that a RWD that hasn't been modded won't hang. Heck, I know some that have been modded and won't hang. I have had a long love affair of FWD's but never had anything that handles like this little car does. It just wants to go fast. [:D]

That's exactly what I am talking about. When I'm REALLY on it, I am running close to redline in the hard turns. When doing this with the Focus/Quaife, I feel certain that a RWD that hasn't been modded won't hang. Heck, I know some that have been modded and won't hang. I have had a long love affair of FWD's but never had anything that handles like this little car does. It just wants to go fast. [:D]

And on an autox course the rear end swinging around on the RWD just takes up too much time and space. When you watch an event where the S2000s smoke everyone, you know you're watching newbs.

Not to get off topic here, but when and what channel could I catch some of these races on? I'm not talking WRC but track racing?

Not to get off topic here, but when and what channel could I catch some of these races on? I'm not talking WRC but track racing?

I'm just talking about going to SCCA events in person. Everyone loves on the S2000s and Miatas until the AWD and FWDs smoke 'em. The stock '06+ Si is a perfect example of how a good driver, FWD, and a decent LSD makes for a killer AutoX car.

http://www.scca.com/home.aspx

Ah, thanks. I'm assuming that you are speaking of the Civic, SI. ???

Hey man, sorry you didn't get any intelligent responses. Let me try.

There is no friction at play in a Torsen, nor is there any "locking up" going on. The Torsen does not bias until a torque ratio of 2.1:1 (iirc) is reached. The inside tire may spin, but a torque bias will be applied to the wheel with the most traction. This is why the outer wheel is able to pull the car around.

The summary is, use as much throttle as possible without spinning the outside tire. I have found that some spinning of that inside tire is OK, as I'm sure you'll be able to feel the outer wheel doing lots of good work [;)].

^^This^^ though I don't have any experience yet with a torsen... It sounds right.

You're likely going to get some spin, so I say give it as much throttle as you can before the outside tire spins. It seems like when I try and feather the throttle (with the open diff), I am slower then when I just trailbrake to rotate the car, then get on it.