: Car smoking under vacuum and running weird
07-30-2009, 10:54 AM
I recently drove out to NM to visit some family and was planning on going to FocusFest on my way back. Well I had some stuff come up with the family and had come drive back early. But while I was in NM, the car started running weird. It would sputter some, and just run different. Then it started to smoke a little bit at idle and under vacuum driving if i let off of the gas.
I took it to my aunts bf house and looked underneath and there was some oil on the turbo piping and around where the bov piping was. I took off the bov and the adapter had come a little loose so i figured thats what the problem was. I put it back on and drove it and it still smoked some but not as bad, i figured it was just burning off the rest of the oil. I left that day to come back and thats when it got bad. It started to smoke pretty bad when i let off of the gas as well as at idle. still nothing when there was a load on the engine though. the car also started to sound like an sti. when i got the car home i took out the spark plugs and one of the plugs was gummed up pretty bad. well i cleaned it and put it back in and started the car and it ran smooth and still smoked a little bit but like before i figured it was the oil/gas in the exhaust just burning out. i only ran it for a couple min while i moved it to change my oil.
as i went to drain the oil, i noticed the oil drain from the turbo going into the oil pan was kinked right by the oil pan. i straightened it back out but im sure that had something to do with the problems, not letting the oil drain well.
well i changed the oil and filter and let it idle for a little bit then took it for a drive. same thing, smoke when i let off the gas and some at idle. it also feels like the plug might be starting to gum up again.. the turbo was also spooling VERY slowly.
does anyone have any idea what could cause this? remember it only smokes at idle sometimes and all the time under extreme vac, when driving in gear and letting off the gas. i plan on doing a compression test today, but i doubt its anything internal. my dad was saying pcv valve possibly, but i doubt that as well. there had been some oil around the throttle body on the way back to VA too, but i cleaned it some and there hasnt been anymore.
any help would definitely be welcome!
07-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Sounds like rings maybe going out. Do a compression check.
07-30-2009, 11:28 AM
maybe an oil seal in turbo gone out from the kinked oil drain? just a thought, I'm still new to FI.
07-30-2009, 11:55 AM
100% sure its your rings.
Read my enormous thread. I have good experience with that....lol
07-30-2009, 12:21 PM
do a compression test.
07-30-2009, 12:37 PM
Well that sucks.
I can see where this is going but I hope it doesn't.
Best of luck with whatever it is.
07-30-2009, 12:59 PM
i hoping its not rings.. but if it is, i guess ill be building my motor sooner than i had originally planned..
ill be doing a compression test tonight hopefully. ill let everyone know the results..
i would think rings would cause smoke all the time though?
07-30-2009, 01:10 PM
oh and i forgot to say, my AFR is fine, perfectly normal
07-30-2009, 01:16 PM
You are correct they would
You said the turbo sounded funny (like a STI) My guess is the turbo is shot , exducer damaged/burned and seals gone , If the exducer is damaged it will be my pleasure to tell you why but check it first to see
Turbo seals and valve stem seals cause smoke at decel when Vac is highest
I would do a compression test and a leak down , a compression test does not allways pick up small issues where a leak down will
07-30-2009, 01:22 PM
well the turbo did sound a little funny, but the exhaust is what i was referring to sounding like an sti. im thinking its the turbo too.. :/ but if it was the turbo, that wouldnt cause one cylinder to get all gummed up would it?
and its weird it could be at 17-18 vac and be fine with me barely pushing in the gas pedal, but if i let off completely and it goes to 20-21 vac it will smoke.
ill do a compression test and leak down test though..
also ive always had a lot of blow-by, is that normal with the dtec?
07-30-2009, 01:36 PM
As you lift off the throttle it changes the load on the turbo on its axes if you like , if the seals are gone this would be when it would smoke
If you burn the tips on the exducer it changes the sound of the turbo , I call it a ambulance kind of sound , kind of changes to a higher pitch , hard to explain not sure if thats what your hearing or not
If oil goes into the engine the plugs heat up and oil will collect on them causing them to fowel , a compression/leakdown will answer internal , Im still guessing turbo
Oil going into the engine causes a drastic drop in octane
If you have been running around all this time with a slightly kinked return hose and just found it I would doubt seriously this caused your issues now
Turbo seals just go bad it happens , If the exducer is damaged or bearings that opens a whole new can of worms
07-30-2009, 02:04 PM
I was also leaning toward turbo seals...
07-30-2009, 03:01 PM
i just kinked it before i went to NM when i changed the oil then
and just did the compression test
starting from the left when looking at the engine from the front of the car...
cyl 1 - 182psi
cyl 2 - 182psi
cyl 3 - 105psi
cyl 4 - 183psi
and it took a while to get it to 105psi. after about 5-7 cranks it was around 75psi. then after a few more 90psi. then 105psi a few more.. wouldnt go any higher after that.
and cylinder 3 is the one that had the gummed up spark plug. there also was some oil on the spark plug when i took it out and it had been run a max of 15 min total since it was cleaned yesterday.
07-30-2009, 03:20 PM
ok that leaves valve seals or rings on #3
07-30-2009, 03:33 PM
wish i had the money to build the motor now
07-30-2009, 03:49 PM
squirt in some oil on number 3 cylinder. If compression goes up then its rings..
If not then valves
07-30-2009, 05:07 PM
Do the compression test again only cranking 4 times total , then get your numbers any more then that and the readings are what they are but not right for a "true" compression test
07-30-2009, 07:04 PM
Either way he did the same amount in the first place and cyl 3 is about half of the other 3 of them. Something piston/ring landing/valve related is toast. You'll find out when you take it apart. Worth checking the turbo to make sure there is no damage there but chances are if you lost a ring land or something along those lines it'd be passing oil into the combusion chamber which would explain the smoke--maybe it needs 19 inches of mercury or more to force its way into the chamber, who knows.
07-30-2009, 07:50 PM
build time sorry man
07-30-2009, 08:16 PM
just like tom said you only crank 4 times on each cylinder for a compression test. if one is low then squirt some oil in it then check it. if it goes up a lot then it will be your rings. if not then probably the valves. leakdown test will tell you which one.
as far as the oil in the charge pipes, burning under vacuum, and the oil drain kinked i would put my money on the turbo seals being gone as well. spooling slow and sounding bad you many end up needed a whole new turbo as well.
07-30-2009, 10:24 PM
He sais he kinked the hose on the oil change BEFORE ? heading on his trip , If this is the case then the kinked line would of caused the issue as soon as he started the car up and went 2 miles
A stopped up return line has brutal smoke and wouldnt cause engine damage unless you had the smoke and went WOT , the smoke/oil going in the engine has a big effect on octane , but it would be smoking like a freight trane
07-31-2009, 12:06 AM
Also check your pcv. That might cause smoke to come out your exhaust. I had smoke coming out my exhaust and did a compression test and checked the turbo. They concluded it was the pcv.
07-31-2009, 01:10 AM
Im gonna agree with what everyone is saying. To me it sounded like turbo right off the bat before you got the compression readings. If you kinked the hose on the return line, the oil would have no other place to go than into the housings past the seals. Obviously you ran with it like this for a while so even if you fix the kink, the damage is done to the turbo seals.
Id do the comp test tom suggested you redo and the other tests everyone is suggesting. Hopefully its turbo, much cheaper than new engine!
07-31-2009, 09:12 AM
well i can tell you that the others were 182-183 after about 5 cranks.
the bad cylinder was 79 after about 5 cranks
and ill go ahead and check the turbo too, but it does look like ill be building the motor.
probably gonna go with eagle rods, fswerks 9:1 pistons, cosworth bearings, arp studs, ranger crank. if the turbo is screwed, then the gt2871r will be the replacement.
07-31-2009, 11:38 AM
Going to FF still?
07-31-2009, 12:19 PM
If you kinked the hose on the return line, the oil would have no other place to go than into the housings past the seals. Obviously you ran with it like this for a while so even if you fix the kink, the damage is done to the turbo seals.
When was the oil changed ? before you left on your trip correct ? If this is the case then he would of see a TON of oil smoke before he even left his town
07-31-2009, 02:40 PM
i doubt ill make it to FF. id have to get the parts and have the motor built in less than a week.. pretty tough..
07-31-2009, 04:56 PM
Didnt know if you had another ride?
07-31-2009, 05:21 PM
08-01-2009, 01:04 AM
Did you try the adding oil to the cylinder and seeing if the comp went up?
08-07-2009, 06:01 PM
i found this on one website when i was reading FAQ
If the amount of ring blowby exceeds the ability of the crank vents to release the pressure positive pressure will build within the crankcase. This pressure within the crankcase can exceed the pressure inside the compressor and turbine housings under some operating conditions resulting in oil being driven pass the seals by the improperly biased pressure gradient across the seal rings.
thats probably why my car was/is smoking. i have a ton of blowby
08-07-2009, 07:52 PM
I know when i had mine vented to the catchcan both the crank and the VC i guess the vent on the CC wasnt big enough to vent everything properly and i got a ton of oil out of the exhaust. I read what you are saying there and i took my crank vent off and vented to the atmos and the VC is still vented to the CC and i have no more smoke/oil.
08-07-2009, 10:18 PM
when i vented my CC i had a bunch of oil out my VC. the CC should allways have a VAC to it to pull out the pressure because if it over pressurizes like stated above, it can blow out seals. cam seals, turbo seals, cranks seals. could make for a huge mess.
08-08-2009, 07:53 AM
Of course you have blow by.... you have bad rings, you're going to have excessive blow by.
You have smoking due to oil going past the rings on your bad cylinder.
08-08-2009, 11:00 AM
lol yeah i know i have blowby but i basically only smoke after i let off the gas or its idling.. wouldnt smoke due to rings be all the time?
08-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Not nessacerally (<--wow spelled that wrong)... when you let off the gas you cause a vacuum in the cylinder.... thats when oil is sucked past the rings and gets burnt. While in boost you are blowing everything out of the cylinder into the crankcase.
08-09-2009, 12:27 PM
well either way my engine build starts tomorrow!
08-09-2009, 10:13 PM
how many miles on boost?? [:(]
08-10-2009, 08:18 AM
24,000 boosted on the stock engine before the ring went bad in that one cylinder. rings go bad in stock engines without boost so im not that worried about things. my car has 55,000 miles on it now.
08-10-2009, 09:15 AM
Who is doing your build?
08-10-2009, 11:59 AM
twisted customs in fredericksburg va. i know the owner rob.
should know what i need by tomorrow morning, and hopefully have it done by this friday :)
08-10-2009, 01:55 PM
I thought you were just going to go with the pre built block from F2?
Also, are you gonna get the bigger turbo?
Anyways...goodluck with the build and be sure to post up pics and all the good jazz.
08-10-2009, 02:37 PM
i was thinking about it, but im gonna just have someone i trust build it for me to save some money, and get some different parts..
08-10-2009, 09:34 PM
ok after everything was taken apart, i found out i have two holes in my number 3 piston and the combustion chamber is destroyed. so not only do i need a new bottom end, i need a new cylinder head...
08-10-2009, 09:40 PM
probably should have had Tom tune it [poke] [:D]
08-10-2009, 09:49 PM
08-10-2009, 10:02 PM
lol no i should have not overboosted as many times as i did..
i was on a manual boost controller for about 4-5 months. i had it set at 10psi, but it would spike a lot. for instance running 50mph with my foot off of the gas then flooring it would cause it to jump to 14+psi and then fall back down to 10. this happened MANY times. honestly probably 50 times or more over those several months.
from what ive heard, that coupled with lower octane and high elevations in NM plus a lack of an oil catch can probably caused some detonation that i didnt hear and damaged the pistons and weakened them and over time with as hard as i drove it, the piston just died. since ive been with an ebc its set around 11-11.5psi and the most ive had it up to is around 12.5 a few times but not for very long. most of hte time my peak high boost reads 11.3 or so.
either way ill be starting a build thread here soon with all the parts im installing.
and a new intake manfold will not be on the list quite yet
08-10-2009, 10:55 PM
do you have a internal wg or external
08-10-2009, 10:58 PM
08-10-2009, 11:00 PM
well that is one thing that is causing boost spikes
08-10-2009, 11:33 PM
Yea but that is how the kit is made...plus he would probably have to pay to get a new tune if he changed it to external...
08-10-2009, 11:47 PM
well the kit should have been made with external, any good aftermarket kit would be external.
08-11-2009, 07:24 AM
too bad none are made like that
and i have an ebc now and it doesnt spike. the problem was the mbc
08-11-2009, 03:39 PM
well the kit should have been made with external, any good aftermarket kit would be external.
Thank you !