I called my SCT dealer but theyre closed for the day [:(] and searched in the sct forums just to find out im doing things right so, figured i'd make a post because i am clueless.

The problem is quite simple, I am commanding open loop but my open loop flag stays at 0 and my stft's are all over the place (not just showing back the base table). This is at idle up to about 20 counts of throttle from start all the way until i turn off the motor (so, all conditions). Since the afr sits around 16 the longest ive gone is about 30-40 seconds like this, scared to go any longer. The stft slowly drops down until it pegs at .75, and at that point afr goes to 13.5. If I tap the throttle stft goes back to 1 and it starts over again.

I have the front o2 unplugged and the heater turned off so I could put my wideband in the stock front o2 location (to make OL tuning easier and more accurate). The idea was to just force open loop and tune off the wideband. But i cant force open loop [:(]

Things I have done in the tune:

heater switch for bank 1 sensor 1 o2 - changed to 0

TP for WOT table - all set to 0

Fuel Open Loop TP table - all set to 0

Time to Delay Open Loop (for the ECT and RPM conditions) - set to 0.125

Adaptive control switch - changed to 0

(EVAP canister) switch to allow open loop purge - changed to 1

switch to force open loop fuel - changed to 1

HELP please!

fwiw I also cannot find the DMR for knock sensor retard.

Almost 100% positive because your control hego is unplugged. Reinstall your "front 02" sensor and see what it does. If you have enough wire, throw your wideband in the end of your tailpipe about a foot. Thats what alot of dyno shops do, my be off if you have a leak though.

if I wanted to use my tailpipe I would just use my rear o2 location

i need to get o2 before the cat thats all there is to that argument.


Now, as far as just plugging in the hego, I will give that a try tomorrow. it's raining, and the only way to do it right now is go under the car and get really really wet.

There is no issues with installing the o2 in the rear o2 , But you reading your books im sure you know better then me

You need the front o2 to work the closed loop why on earth would you want to force open loop ? To force open loop there is a setting in the software in 2 places that will keep your Focus in open loop all the time

Tom

im forcing open loop so I can tune off of my wideband instead of the crappy inaccurate narrowband signal

because of egt changes and many many other variables the rear o2 will read anywhere from .02-.1 lambda lean, this has been proven many times over ON THE DYNO by tuners across the country

If you read my first post you would know that I already changed both those things in my tune.

You shouldnt be trying to tune the idle from the wide band , the " crappy inaccurate narrowband signal" If your talking about the stock o2 is what the ECU uses to adjust the fuel trims and what you should also be using to get yours right as well

As for the .1 to .2 Dif in the before and after of the CAT a good tuner would know what the Diff is and allow for it in the tune , as rich as your going to be running that book of yours didnt tell you that the Focus CAT design will stop up and cause engine failure if used with the target AF you will have to be using , it has a very limited life with boost

Tom

Tom

Not boosting yet.

I'm also NOT going straight by "my book", I bought the book as a reference not as a teacher. I learn form many sources, your past posts included. It takes a lot to put all of the information available together and on top of that I learn something new every day that I can apply to my tune.

So tomorrow I guess by your advice I will just throw it together and assume some sort of lambda difference after my cat, hopefully it goes into OL when I tell it to at higher TP...

Everyone starts somewhere Tom you gotta realize that we cant all be you on day 1


and for the record i'm not tuning a/f directly with the wideband im tuning the MTF (which as a result tunes a/f). Setting a lambda in the base table and forcing open loop then comparing the wideband output to the base table.... then apply changes to the MTF... that's tuning 101 for 99% of cars on the road that use MAF's and as far as I remember you yourself recommended we should do it that way in antoher thread... I can dig it up if you want.

Fueling is based off the mass air flow reading, and the conrol hego readings from what i remember. Correct?

I'm not going to answer that since apparnetly I know absofrikenloutely nothing about tuning

No you wont find anywhere that I said to do it that way , Just get your MTF where you think it should be , start the Focus , see where your stft1 goes it will tell you by how much to change the MTF by to hit 1.000 the 14.7 stoich target , .750 would be by 25% so change it by 25% , .750 is the most it will go so you may need to change it a bit more , this way your changing it by what the computer uses in closed loop not by what your wide band and open loop sais it should be , either way your going to have to adjust for closed loop why not do it to start with , a little math and you can figure the MTF with in about 12 to 15% first shot , closed loop will adjust +/- 25% on its own and tell you by how much it is adjust it by , why do all the guessing in open loop ?

Tom

You make a very good point there I will give it a shot in the morning

Thanks Tom.

good progress here. i like it.

What is your processor code again? You should be able to force open loop to tune your transfer function if you want (we do this all of the time) but as noted your fuel trims are easy to work with up until WOT.

What is your processor code again? You should be able to force open loop to tune your transfer function if you want (we do this all of the time) but as noted your fuel trims are easy to work with up until WOT.

Yeah.. But you probably have the control hego sensor(s) plugged in too. I believe theres a reason engineers dubb them "control" hegos.

I would think without a hego it would default to OL...

code is NFC1


Also Mike could you tell me where the DMR for the knock sensor retard would be for that processor code? I cant find it... using livelink 4.41...

post count +2

Yeah.. But you probably have the control hego sensor(s) plugged in too. I believe theres a reason engineers dubb them "control" hegos.

This is true. Not saying this is the cause of the problem here but it is possible.

I would think without a hego it would default to OL...

code is NFC1


Also Mike could you tell me where the DMR for the knock sensor retard would be for that processor code? I cant find it... using livelink 4.41...

With most vehicles this is usually the case.

I will look for the knock parameters...

I would think without a hego it would default to OL...

code is NFC1


Also Mike could you tell me where the DMR for the knock sensor retard would be for that processor code? I cant find it... using livelink 4.41...

What items do you see under knock sensor? I am not connected to a vehicle, but in your strategy under knock sensor I see (among others):

-knock sensor retard increment
-knock sensor retard limit

These items may or may not come up when actually connected to a vehicle. If they do not, try creating a dlf file with those parameters and using that for on device logging.

I would think without a hego it would default to OL...

code is NFC1


Also Mike could you tell me where the DMR for the knock sensor retard would be for that processor code? I cant find it... using livelink 4.41...

I am curious about this...since you have the O2 out, try changing the number of O2 sensors in the software from 1 to 0. See if it will switch to open loop then. Also, how is your base fuel table set?

i get

retard increment
retard limit
knock window offset
spark adder increment

this is both when typing in sbaf6 and when connected to the vehicle.

i get

retard increment
retard limit
knock window offset
spark adder increment

this is both when typing in sbaf6 and when connected to the vehicle.

Have you tried logging any of those to see what kind of data comes back?

I am curious about this...since you have the O2 out, try changing the number of O2 sensors in the software from 1 to 0. See if it will switch to open loop then. Also, how is your base fuel table set?

Well the sensor is not currently out, I had to put it back in and reload my old tune so we could get to work today. But I will go try it anyway, i'm curious as well.

Where would that be in the tune, I can only find "number of o2 switches before learning" which is set to 3 (have not changed it yet)


Base table is all 1.00 for 360 TP counts and below, then goes to .859 for 400 counts and above (ive heard it makes it easier this way to know where you are when tuning with wbo2)

Have you tried logging any of those to see what kind of data comes back?

retard increment just reports the retard increment from the retard rate table

retard limit just stayed at 0 the whole time, not sure why because my retard limit table is -4 or -5

knock window was around 0.11-0.12 the entire time

I didnt log adder increment but I assume it would report the adder increment from the adder rate table

Im not trying to be a pain. All main fueling controls we used are based off of the control hegos. Stuff goes bad when they go bad or arent plugged in. Yes, if the hego isnt switching, it defaults. But i cant remember to what. I feel im being more a pain then anything else, i wont chime in anymore. Good luck "Ill"!

Hey no way man not being a pain at all. The more opinions the better.

I just havent had a chance to get out there and test the theory yet, im too busy posting lol

Where would that be in the tune, I can only find "number of o2 switches before learning" which is set to 3 (have not changed it yet)




In the same section, right above it. You may not have access to it. If you don't see it and want to try it, let me know and I can send you a quick value file that will change it.

retard increment just reports the retard increment from the retard rate table

retard limit just stayed at 0 the whole time, not sure why because my retard limit table is -4 or -5

knock window was around 0.11-0.12 the entire time

I didnt log adder increment but I assume it would report the adder increment from the adder rate table


Just because the limit table is set to -4 or -5 doesn't mean it is always going to pull that amount. The table just states the maximum amount it CAN pull out if it needs to. Were you logging this at idle or while driving?
Also look under spark. There should be a parameter there for knock sensor array or something like that.

I dont see it...

OK thanks a ton. for your help. I'm going to try

1) plug in HEGO see if it goes to OL

if that doesnt work then
2) just tune off of stft's

then if I'm still having problems with OL I'll let you know... mostly I just want to get this tune up and running, my old one is pretty bad...

Just because the limit table is set to -4 or -5 doesn't mean it is always going to pull that amount. The table just states the maximum amount it CAN pull out if it needs to. Were you logging this at idle or while driving?
Also look under spark. There should be a parameter there for knock sensor array or something like that.

Yeha that makes sense, seems like it should pull the increment until it didnt hear knock up until it reaches the limit

in any case I dont understand why the dmr for retard limit wasnt reporting the retard limit table, there must be some sort of timed event in the tune to allow knock sensor pulls (like the start ECT/spark table)

This was all at idle.

In spark (livelink now) I found KNK_SENSOR_SPARK_ADDER, do you think this could go positive/negative to show adds/pulls? But this dmr would also show things like spark taken out for act and ect... Nothing else related to knock in there.

OK so it wouldnt go into OL even with the hego plugged in the way i had it. so I put a bunch of stuff back to normal and decided to just tune off the stft

its going well i have it pretty much dialed in up to 300 counts.

With this tune im going to check OL switching again, I have TP for OL at 20 counts so we'll see if it goes into OL for me.

There are 2 TP settings that need to be changed and a few others that make it switch quicker , they all need to be set corectly to make OL work like it should or needs to

Tom

ok here is what happened when I had TP for open loop at 20

stft was normal up to 20 tp counts, moving between 1.01 and 1.04 (still tuning this at the time)
as soon as 20 tp counts hit, stft went to 1.000 and flatlined
open loop flag stayed at 0 no matter what
after closing the throttle again the stft remained at 1.000 indefinitely until I turned the engine off.


any ideas? It looks like its going open loop because of the 1.00 stft, but the open loop flag is not getting thrown, and its not going back into closed loop when i take off the throttle.

shoot me a copy of your tune file

Tom

I believe that the going rate for an NA tune is $125.

[8][bootyshak

haha!

What is the difference between being WOT and being in open loop? There seems to be some kind of important difference but its not specified in the comments.

Your so making me want the PRP.

it is very nice

believe me i know what it feels like. ive been driving around on this crappy tune i got 2 years ago. just couldnt bring myself to pull the trigger. but finally i got it, and let me tell you it is even more than I was hoping for. The car is going to drive EXACTLY how i want it to when im done...

If you will IM me in the morning I do beleive I know your problem , I feel your stuck in OL now from the o2 not being hooked up you need to clear your Batt and get me a log from start up we can get you going quickly ,

When the closed loop trims go as far as they can to correct roughly 25% they fail into open loop and about the only way to get it out of failed OL is to clear the batt this lets the car in OL but lets it time out to closed loop and start trimming again , I dont feel you were ever in CL sence reinstalling the o2

Tom

but my trims have been changing. I was seeing stft anywhere from .8 to 1.05. and when I changed the mtf, the trims changed to reflect it.

tonight ill unhook the battery for 30 mins and see what happens

Let me re-state the problem,

it trims normally when I start the engine. Everything works great and my changes to the MTF in the tune are reflected by changes in stft.

once I go past the "fuel open loop TP", the stft sticks to 1.000 and never changes, but the open loop flag does not go to 1. It never goes back to closed loop after this point.

ugh doubled up

What is the difference between being WOT and being in open loop? There seems to be some kind of important difference but its not specified in the comments.

WOT is a turm for the TPS , OL is a turm for fueling , you had the wrong side of the TPS`s set to go to OL , you changed the left side , you need to change the right side of the tables , there is a TPS setting for WOT and a TPS setting for WOT allways change the settings in the right side NOT the left

Changing the left side turns off the RPM to tell the ECU at what RPM the TPS signal in the right side TPS voltage ,so setting all the lowers to 0 but leaving the top 16383 (infinity in a tune/ top / max) still sets an RPM so nothing tells it to go into OL If you had set the right side to all 0 then set the force open loop setting it will go into OL

Tom

Let me re-state the problem,

it trims normally when I start the engine. Everything works great and my changes to the MTF in the tune are reflected by changes in stft.

once I go past the "fuel open loop TP", the stft sticks to 1.000 and never changes, but the open loop flag does not go to 1. It never goes back to closed loop after this point.

I understand what your saying , Contact me before you change anything in the morning , I think your in failed OL now , do you have a log you can send me now

Tom

I didnt actually change the left side, the tune was like that when i opened it on day 1....

I had it so the right side was all 0's and the left side was 16383 0 0 0 0 0 and it still didnt throw the OL flag.

having the left side like this will just make the tp for open loop the same for all RPM (it iterates)


I'll send you a log of when I had TP for WOT and fuel open loop TP both at 20 all down the right side

anyone who wants to see whats going on i have a log ready to send out just PM me your email

Your correct the STFT1 is trimming in that file ,try the one I sent you and see what happens

Tom

it is very nice

believe me i know what it feels like. ive been driving around on this crappy tune i got 2 years ago. just couldnt bring myself to pull the trigger. but finally i got it, and let me tell you it is even more than I was hoping for. The car is going to drive EXACTLY how i want it to when im done...

Ill,

I see you took the plunge and ponied up the cash for the PRP.[deviltail]

Sorry I don't know anything about your Zetec tune, I had to go through all of this kind of stuff when I was learning how my cal worked, and all the details.

But I would not want it any other way. I was really happy with my tune when I was done. You'll get it all worked out in the end.

My car seemed to run just right when I was done, very drivable as a DD, and no cold/hot start issues, except on the cold days I would throw a MIL on cold starts. I was going to dig into it, but since the car is coming off the road this year, I'm not going to loose sleep over it. (Got my SCCA novice license this past weekend, I'M GOIN' ROAD RACING IN A FOCUS BABY! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ejwHlxrd4g)

FWIW, I did almost all of my MTF tuning except WOT using closed loop, based on LTFT readings, and adjusting the values based on % as Tom suggested.

But I did all my WOT in open loop comparing STFT to Wideband readings, IMHO I feel this is the only way to get WOT perfect.

I was using the Wideband installed in place of the US hego. The Innovate LC1 Kit provides an output that simulates the factory narrowband so while you are tuning/logging the wideband signal, the LC1 is feeding the ECU an equivalent narrowband value. Nice trick Eh?

That might help your situation.[^]

Yeah I made a thread about that a few weeks ago but decided it would be easier to just turn off the front o2 and force open loop, rather than cut and splice into the wiring harness to get the signal in from my wideband.

Turns out it wasnt easy at all.

so yeah, I'm definitely going to be reconsidering that option.


Good luck off the road [thumb]

Yeah I made a thread about that a few weeks ago but decided it would be easier to just turn off the front o2 and force open loop, rather than cut and splice into the wiring harness to get the signal in from my wideband.

Turns out it wasnt easy at all.

so yeah, I'm definitely going to be reconsidering that option.


Good luck off the road [thumb]

It was nothing at all to splice in the narrowband feed.

I decided to splice into the HEGO pigtail instead of the engine harness so if I wanted to eliminate the "evidence" of modifying the harness, I just needed to replace the HEGO.

ah, very nice. long runs of wire though to get from where I have my wideband controller mounted (over where the ECU is) all the way to the front of the engine bay, pretty sure I would have to change the o2 delay a little bit, not to mention the voltage drop would screw with things.

ah, very nice. long runs of wire though to get from where I have my wideband controller mounted (over where the ECU is) all the way to the front of the engine bay, pretty sure I would have to change the o2 delay a little bit, not to mention the voltage drop would screw with things.

Since electricity travels at the speed of light, you should not have to change the O2 delay for a longer wire. (you only have to change that if you change where you install the O2 in the exhaust stream like if you use long tube headers etc, or possibly if you significantly reduce backpressure, and the exhaust exits the cylinder at a higher velocity.)

As for the voltage drop, as long as you solder the connection. It's a very low amperage circuit, so you'll get 0 voltage drop on a longer wire provided it's soldered correctly and the splice does not create resistance.

Voltage drop usually only becomes significant when the current exceeds the circuit capacity.

Check the resistance of 1 Ft of wire, then 100 ft of the same wire, it will be identical.

Voltage drop occurs when the circuit cannot handle the amps.

Take a 4ga starter cable and a 22ga tail light wire.

Check the resistance, they will be 0 ohms. Both can feed the tail light w/o a voltage drop, but you won't be able to crank the starter through the 22ga tail light wire.

Was planning on using 18awg which has about .0064 ohms per foot, it would be about a 40 foot run (20 for the signal, 20 for the ground reference, dont want to make a ground loop issue) so about .128 ohms total, max it would run is say about 200mA so 0.02V drop

.02V is going to be somewhere around .01-.02 lambda which isnt much but it counts.

i was considering the prp too. but reading this tread my brain is on melt down!!![scratch] wtf is a mtf, wot, stft, ltft ? i did learn something i can run with in my ignorance. the LC1 has an out put to the ecm!!![headbang][wiggle][woot][loveff]

.1 lamda is when it starts to matter. Can you continue to use the LC1 as the control sensor, and a wideband a/f sensor? Thats trick, didnt know it could do that. And last... Does the PRP walk you through tuning or have a procedure to follow? I have a great understanding about whats going on, but i know id get lost at one point. Not like i can afford it at the moment, but just curious.

mass transfer function - tells the PCM how much air is going through the mass air flow sensor for what voltage its giving out

WOT - wide open throttle, a condition that you set in you tune to a specific throttle position based on rpm

stft - short term fuel trim, the PCM is using the front o2 sensor to make minor changes to fueling to achieve 14.64:1

ltft - long term trim, the PCM is "learning" what stft is most of the time, and applies that value to fuel for that specific condition.

LC1 is a type of wideband

PCM - powertrain control module aka ECU aka ECM

since .01 lambda is about .2 afr, imho .01 lambda matters, especially for WOT.

I am not using a LC1 I have a JAW Just Another Wideband. It has two programmable voltage outs and a regular gauge just like the LC1. So yes you can retain the gauge, the wideband datalog, and on top of that simulate a narrowband signal to the PCM.

No Advantage does not contain a walkthrough but to get the basics of tuning down you ought to get a reference book, this is by no means a book about how to tune a focus but it will tell you many things that are generally true for tuning EFI engines, including the process and order of doing things as well as a few different ways of getting them done. Again this book is NOT A WALKTHROUGH either, there are many many ways to tune a EFI car.

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238043093&sr=8-1

You should turn off your adaptive and ignor the LTFT

Why go through all the wiring in of things , set the OL to come on quick and use the A/F Gauge to check and set your base fuel , how easier could it be , your using your AF Gauge anyway , keep it simple and easy

Tom

Yep thats the plan, if I can get it to go open loop predictably I will definitely just leave the OEM stuff in place.

for the record i have adaptive off

going to sleep now im tired as hell.

good nite and thank's for the explanation!! my head stoped throbbing so much![idea]

since .01 lambda is about .2 afr, imho .01 lambda matters, especially for WOT.

I am not using a LC1 I have a JAW Just Another Wideband. It has two programmable voltage outs and a regular gauge just like the LC1. So yes you can retain the gauge, the wideband datalog, and on top of that simulate a narrowband signal to the PCM.

Yeah, i meant .1 a/f ratio instead of lambda. You guys got me really thinking about one of these trick wideband sensors. If it can do both, i wont have to pull the header, weld another bung, re-wrap it, etc...

This is for Mike in particular...

I was looking at the .xml for my strategy, and this is the only pid/dmr I could find related to knock sensor retard directly... But it's named retard limit. Is this or is it not the knock sensor activity DMR for when it hears knock?

(information removed by request)

Because there's also this one with the same exact name that reads the retard limit, probably from the limit table

(information removed by request)

The first one should be knock activity and the second reading from the table.

In the future can you please refrain from posting the xml info. Everything in it is encrypted but I would still like to not see it publically. We have done away with these files in the latest versions of livelink (that I am testing now.)

OK I will edit my posts

my apologies, figured it was public info since the .xml is in clear text in the directory...

and thank you.

So, could you guys change the name of that first one in later editions? lol

I just set the entire knock sensor advance limit table to 0, anyone see a problem with that? I dont want it adding timing while im trying to tune.

I like leaving the advance on this way it shows you where timing can safely be added and by how much ,keep in mind to low of timing can cause high EGT also The knock sensor and the way it is set on the Focus is very accurate its the only Ford Product that I can say that about , even the SVT has to be turned off because of the sensivity settings being wrong

I would leave it on

Tom

ok yeah it didnt seem to be causing problems below 2000rpm where it was still on.

Yes I'm trying to make sure i dont go too low on timing... but I have a MAJOR problem with something right now, the KS is pulling timing above .45 load above 2200rpm and at about 15-20% throttle... I had the BKT in that area down in the single digits and its still pulling timing so im thinking its just a phantom knock from valve noise?

edit, im going to add fuel and see what happens. Thanks to the 65mm throttle im going to have to go into OL very early...

Well, I did it.

It went into open loop, then came back out of it and trimmed fuel. I even got over .5 load and up to 3500rpm without any KR.

This was in 1st gear.

After I saw it did this I changed to second and did it again, it went OL, but as soon as it hit .5 load it started pulling timing again. And then it got stuck in failed open loop, never went back to trimming.


So, I guess this is just a status update, will do a lot more tomorrow since I dont work at all.

zormg, loving this thread. go team ff.

Some more status updating:

Engine is running quite well above 2600rpm [woot]

Currently troubleshooting the 1800-2200rpm timing pulls, its pulling timing back to ATDC [paranoid] for anything above about .45 load...

This makes me realize that my old tune was probly knocking like this oh about every single time I was driving [rant]

Where was this old tune from anyway?

Logan Motorsports in Elgin, IL

they had my knock sensor off, spent 0 time on drivability, and did a total of 4 or 5 dyno pulls. So basically the guy did his best to get me out the door in as little time as possible. My stft would peg at .75 at every single stoplight.

Wish I knew more about this stuff back then...

Interesting... God knows why they disconnected the knock sensor for the tune... Sounds like a remote tune would be better than the dyno tune you had. Or at least safer.

yes that is very true

But I just went where Karl told me to go, didn't know any better at the time.

Logan Motorsports in Elgin, IL

they had my knock sensor off, spent 0 time on drivability, and did a total of 4 or 5 dyno pulls. So basically the guy did his best to get me out the door in as little time as possible. My stft would peg at .75 at every single stoplight.

Wish I knew more about this stuff back then...

Wow... Your lucky crap didnt happen. LOL, i know you brought this "crappy tune" up before, and i was hoping it wasnt from the guy im going to be getting my tune from soon. Was kinda starting to double think. Keep at it, your doing great. Im sure it'll start getting easier as you get more seat time. Plus you got alot of great help if you need it.

Interesting... God knows why they disconnected the knock sensor for the tune... Sounds like a remote tune would be better than the dyno tune you had. Or at least safer.

Some times the KS will pick-up valve train noise, and interfere with the calibration process.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the problems I have been fighting when doing my tune.

There are tools to listen for knock that are expensive but more sophisitcated than a simple pezio KS.

If you check out my dyno post, you'll see that I have a strange "dip" in the tqHP near 5600 RPM, and no matter where I set my timing, I would see knock retard at upper RPM's

illinipo,

sounds like you got hosed on your cal, some tuner/hotrod shops are just money machines with no true skills.

I would have went berserk if someone jacked my car that bad.

That's why I do 99.9% of everything myself, even if I have to take months to learn how, like learning the SCT PRP.

I know enough now to dial in my car pretty good.

Next up, I'll have to edit my final drive ratio. (the 4.06 gears are going in tomorrow. the box is out and already built, it goes back on the road tomorrow for a shake down, then it's coming off the road to get the roll cage welded in, WHOO HOO)

I'm thinking I have a valvetrain noise issue as well. Was talking to John earlier, and after comparing spark tables I cant really explain what is happening any other way. It's especially making me think this because it's happening at such a specific rpm range. But, what makes me think this is not the case is that it only happens above .4 load.

My lash is off pretty bad, you can hear it from the driver seat with all the windows closed...

I'm thinking I have a valvetrain noise issue as well. Was talking to John earlier, and after comparing spark tables I cant really explain what is happening any other way. It's especially making me think this because it's happening at such a specific rpm range. But, what makes me think this is not the case is that it only happens above .4 load.

My lash is off pretty bad, you can hear it from the driver seat with all the windows closed...

at higher loads the combustion forces that are acting on the valves is greater.

Smack something with a hammer, then smack it with a hammer 2X as hard and it will make more noise......

You could have some piston slap too.

Aside from the lash issue, don't forget, if you have over 150K, those valve springs are tired.

the springs have around 40-50k on them

supertech valves/eibach springs

That dip in the higher rpm seems pretty common, ive seen it on quite a few dyno sheets. And ford 4cyl's have always been notorious for valvetrain noise.

I told you before to send me a tune and a log and I will be glad to help

The shop karl sends people to are worthless , its easier to turn off the knock sensore then it is to do a proper tune very common with Mustang tuners , It takes me a full day to do a complete tune on the dyno then go drive for in most cases an Hr for driveability issues

Tom

So hows it going ILL? You ready to tune my car yet....J/K Tom.

last week was spring break thats why i was getting so much done

school started again so i havent done anything since Saturday

This weekend im installing a 180 deg thermostat and putting in a new timing belt, then I have to play with my intake cam timing to get rid of this NASTY reversion

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc222/illinipo/BOC/MAFcountsnotsmooth.jpg


But the car drives fine. Just have to go slow between 2000-3000rpms so I dont make the reversion happen.

Once I fix that then I will finish drivability and start working on WOT

I just went and played with my intake cam

-4 made the knock retard issue A LOT worse

+2 made it a little worse. But it was happening at IDLE...


I really think the problem is the intake/exhaust relative phasing, because the last shop to work on my car (trying to be nice here, its very difficult) over-tensioned my timing belt and now it is extremely stretched out. I can move my cams about 3-4 degrees...when the cam gears are tight...

im too tired to figure out the phasing and im putting a new belt on on sunday anyway. So, expect no news until sunday.

If its stretched that bad, im sure the cam sensor/phaser is all over the place trying to correct it. We did work on the supercharger cadillac engines (stsV & xlrV) and we monitored their phasers as part of the testing... super confusing! Each phaser read position through four seperate inputs, i couldnt make heads or tails of what was going on. Hopefully the belt will smooth things out.

New belt in, timing is PERFECT we re-did it twice, first time thought the tension was wrong, second time just did it to be sure. I even used my cam gear to make it absoluetly perfect, 0,1 is now 0,0

Still getting knock retard [bigcry] [bigcry] [bigcry] [bigcry] [bigcry]

But on the highway the tune is amazing, bounces between .99-1.01 and its adding 3-4 degrees of timing.

4th gear pulls 2500-4000 look good, running quite a bit rich and going over 1.0 load so I have some work to do on the MTF but its not knocking and its not lean.

At this point im just going to disable the knock sensor from 1800-2500 or 2800 and just listen for knock, its pretty loud and easy to hear over the exhaust at those rpms.

WOT tuning probably next weekend [:D]

Think there could be a sensor issue? Sucks cause even though you can hear it easier at that range, thats where ive seen knock the most. But only when super high load, low rpm (example=5th gear x 15 mph) . But that doesnt really happen so much so??? You send tom that logged info?

Tom and I have been back and forth a bit, we seem to be pretty much on exactly the same page as far as what we want to do next each time, except he was a bit more bold with going WOT the first time LOL

Due to the cams and having such low timing right now I cannot even drive my car below 1500rpm (it just bucks) so that means rev-matching with double de-clutch down into first for anything below 15mph...

Great thing about the PRP is if I ever hear knock... I just pull out my laptop and fix it...

Also the KR is only from 1800 to about 2800 so I can just turn off retarding between those rpms, I will still have the really low rpm tip-in and high load knock protection

im 99% sure the issue is my valve lash, but what I dont understand is why it only does it over .45 load.

My valvtrain is loudest at lower/mid rpm with little or no load, like cruising through a parking lot and letting off throttle to coast. Ford 4cyl have always had loud valvetrains, but i didnt think bad enough to throw off the knock sensor..lol.

I didnt think the loose belt would be the issue but it needed changing anyway , did you change the thurmo to a 180 ?

I would love to see another log of cruise and 1 WOT from 2 to 4000

Did you try that last file ?

Tom

Logged cruise and wot on the way home ill send you the interesting parts later tonight maybe

not on the new file yet no time to tune it, need to make a few changes first anyway, hitting .6 load at 100tps so i want to go OL sooner, plus i need to tune cold start crank air, its jumping up way too high on cold starts. Not to mention i really need to get the mtf down before i go any further

the 180 is in, still running at 214 ect on the highway so I need to make a lower radiator shroud.

the 180 is in, still running at 214 ect on the highway so I need to make a lower radiator shroud.


^^Wow... I think thats a bit higher then it should be with a 180*. Plus at highway speeds?? Your radiator sound like its got crap in it.

yes i have considered getting a new radiator as well

well,

I got home from work today around 7 after working basically nonstop on my car, school, and work since about 8am on Sunday. I could have gone to sleep, but I had just drove around town about 10 miles and I was SOFAKING tired of the knock retard. I decided to spend some time to make a good tune to drive around on.

1. changed fuel open loop tp, the OL transition is now suited to my driving style (I tend to roll into the throttle). Turned out really well the way I did it, on the way home the other day I did a linear increase in throttle to see what load corresponds to what TP. Then I picked loads I wanted to start ramping down the fuel and made the tp ol table and base fuel table based on that (ramped the base table down starting at the OL tp's). its really matched to my driving style, which IMO is more important than some "magic number" straight across the base table. So, no more running at stoich at .8 load in part throttle...

2. screw my knock sensor. seriously. Its now doing that crazy retard at 4000rpm. I cant hear a damn thing. I am tuning driving next to a curb with a 6ft tall fence 3 ft off the curb. My friend tells me with that fence there I would be able to hear it, it should be REALLY loud like a diesel falling apart. I cant hear anything but the sweet sound of my motor kicking ass.

3. Still pig rich but its better than being lean. I'll wrap up the MTF this weekend.

4. Don't need a new radiator. cruising ECT is now in the low 190's and WOT ect never went over 204

5. cold start now starts up to exactly 1500 where it sits until the coolant is around 120 i think, then it goes to 1200, and then to 900 when it hits 156. yay. I hate ISC tuning lol

Overall a very productive tune [headbang] solved a ton of issues with one tune


So, as it turns out, there was a very good reason for the old tuning place to turn off the sensor [mecry] Looks like I am going to have to do so as well, and rely on my ears to prevent my engine from grenading [paranoid]


Knock would be really loud when driving next to a fence right?

Sweet to hear good shit finally! Lmfao too, screw that ks, seriously..lol! I cant say anything about the fence and hearing knock though. Ive heard it from my drivers seat dieseling my engine (yeah i know), or from engines in my dynos (me standing next to it waving my hands an signing to another tech that its gonna put a hole in the pistion). How much is a ks? I check tomorrow and maybe i'll send you an early christmas present...your not jewish are you? J/k, its totally a joke. I may send the sensor though....

You can have low knock and not hear it

Keep in mind that the knock sensor isnt just for knock it picks up in inefficient combustion meaning a to rich condition or to lean or many other things can cause the knock sensor to go off

Tom

I agree with tom, thats why i was wondering how much they are. Theres something giving it false readings. I know certain gm vehicles would throw the ks off do to the trans shifting hard... Can you monitor the ks with prp... Like visually on screen in o-scope style. Maybe if you can see the ks trace act up, with other related datalogged input traces around it, may be able to help pinpoint?

I am logging a bunch of stuff, the only correlations seem to be that it happens at the same loads and rpms every time, and it doesnt ramp down it just shoots straight down.

here is rpm, knock, and load, it shoots down around 4200 every time. Note I have KR turned off 1800-2800 for this log

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc222/illinipo/BOC/crazyKR2.jpg

Oscope stuff i remember about ks are that it is a constant signal, the when detonation happens it waves up an down close to the baseline. Looks kinda like one of those earthquake measurement devices squiggling back and forth. I dont remember it being constant and the dropping out. I dont know.. Not everthings the same.

that is not voltage that is the actual amount of spark being retarded

You know I can adjust the sensivity on the KS with my software

Tom

HMMM

Dont know if it would be able to discern knock from valvetrain noise, even when desensitized. The valvetrain is REALLY loud right now.

I think the course of action here is I need to get a box of buckets and re-do my valve lash.

that is not voltage that is the actual amount of spark being retarded


Ok, that makes sense.. Thats a hell of a spark retard, really fast. If re-lash your valvetrain...... Man i hope that cures it.

Just to be sure, this is what I am listening for, correct?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPYxoFwG5io&feature=related


or, should I be listening for this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKVcX-Za03E&feature=related



or both?

Also I am in the process of fixing my valve lash, decided to do something about it instead of deal with it [rolleyes] will measure everything this weekend and put the proper buckets in next week.

omfg.

[idea]

lightbulb just came on in my head. finally.

going to start changing out ignition components. plugs tonight, maybe coil tonight but definitely tomorrow.

oh cool! lemme know if you want the extra massive wires that I have. IMO you should switch back to OEM coil/wires.

Plugs did nothing

coil/wires later.

Plugs all look like this, according to this website its "the best"

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/SP14.JPG

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

dont see any metal specs on them either.

Changed my plugs (autolite 104's) after 10k. They looked as clean as the ones i took out. That plug pic looks like the plug has 100k on it... Doesnt look exactly perfect. Rip a ks off a car at the junkyard for comparitive purposes.

the ring on the outside and general dirt is not what to look at, you need to look at the color profile on the ground strap and the porcelain.

if you want ill post mine so you can compare and notice the similarities between that plug and mine

the ring on the outside and general dirt is not what to look at, you need to look at the color profile on the ground strap and the porcelain.

if you want ill post mine so you can compare and notice the similarities between that plug and mine

Technically to read a plug, it needs to be on new plugs anyways. Put new plugs in, try not to idle too much. Go to wot from first, all they way to the top of fourth gear. Once your at the top of fourth, key off and put it in neutral. Once you stop, pull the plugs and read the ground and porcelain profile mark points and color. Only thing you can tell from a plug thats been in there for awhile is detonation IIRC.

Yep that was basiaclly what I was looking for on my plugs anyway (detonation).

and you are pretty much correct, heat range can be told somewhat from older plugs but the proper way to do it is one WOT run.

Another thing is white crusty stuff, which is excessive oil blowby over time. A little bit on 70k plugs is ok, but it actually gets big chunks of this stuff if its bad.

Maf counts (red) look at 2000-3000rpm, MSD coil vs OEM coil, who can tell me which is which?

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc222/illinipo/BOC/afterOEMcoilWOT.jpg

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc222/illinipo/BOC/MAFcountsnotsmooth.jpg



One step closer to a real tune here guys.... Thanks to everyone (esp. Tom) for the help so far.

All thats left really is the valve lash, and maybe some better wires (running the low-end wires from NAPA right now...)

the first one is oem, the second is msd

i'm running the low-end advance auto ones

:)

DING matt gets a cookie

cold start, idle, low rpm driving, all smoother. MSD sucks.

wow, been a while since i had time for this.

Well today I borrowed one of the FJ community bucket boxes and checked my valve lash. It was um... bad. the spec is .004"-.007" intake and .011"-.013" exh. Here were mine in thousandths, from cyl 1-4:

I 15 15 17 15 17 17 15 14
E 21 29 29 17 23 23 31 25

yes, thats .031" of lash on one of those exhausts. wtf.

The box had a lot of useless buckets due to rust (some idiot taped the numbers on the buckets and water got trapped under the tape) so I was only able to minimize the damage:

I 11 9 13 14 11 12 14 15
E 17 19 21 17 17 17 17 17

So I went to check the tune for the new lift and to see if I was still getting valvetrain noise knock retard. and O. M. G. The car is pulling so hard now, with the extra lift and overlap. It is insane. And i still have a few thou to go! [:D]

Anyway, im still getting a knock event consistently at 4200rpm and 18deg of spark, and it ramps it back in right away all the way to 5000 (BKT stays at 18 the whole time before and after 4200), so its definitely the valves. Anyone have a bunch of spare buckets?

Why are you using BKT to tell if its spark knock ?

4200 and 6250 is your 2 worst threasholds for knock meaning your timing will or should be much lower there then before and after those RPM

Tom

I have seen 99.9% of tunes increase spark linearly from 4000-6000 and since my tune stays at 18 the whole time i dont see why it would knock at 4200 and not at 4000 or 5000

in any case ill take your advice and drop it down a bit at 4200 and see what happens, it makes a lot of sense that you would have those 2 rpms that are worse for knock (resonant frequencies and such).

Just did some changes/logging. it is pulling timing at 4200 even with the FINAL timing down at 11 degrees. Pulls it all the way down to 4 degrees before it starts to ramp back up at ~4500 (the max pull is set to -8 right now). When have you ever seen a mild NA zetec that needs 4 degrees or less of timing at 4200rpm?

what did you say your CR is?

only 10.5:1, at least 3 other 10.5-10.8:1 zetecs on this very board are running their timing in the low 20's and fuel at 13.0-13.2:1, I am running at 12.8:1 and its "hearing" what it thinks is knock at only 12 degrees of timing.

coolant temp is 200, iat a bit high at 130 that could be part of the problem, but that shouldnt need to drag it down to 4 degrees of timing.

Lash is still over .010" off on almost all valves there is still a whole bunch of noise coming from the buckets.

Whats your ECU code , you have a dyno close

Tom

NFC1, theres a dynojet about 10 miles away.

I want to fix the valve lash for good before I go try anything else. Since I got it down to where it is, the random knock pulls mostly went away except for this at 4200. They say a tune is worthless if you have other mechanical problems.