Today I was driving along this little road that's right along the edge of a lake, with a hill on the other side. As I was driving along (and it was pretty damn snowy out) a bit too fast I hit a pothole that seemed to cause all of my problems. Suddenly, my car was fishtailing. It occurred to me, then, that I really don't have any idea what to do, when winter driving problems appear. It's luck alone that my car is intact at least a half dozen times over, already, and this is only our second snow. I mean, I was sliding backwards down the f'n road! If it weren't for the blind luck that my car stopped, I could've been in the lake, or in the hill, or in another car, or pretty much anywhere but where it was. I was lucky...

So, my questions... In winter driving, sometimes I have to make a turn, and I put on my brakes and the car just slides. My normal response is just to sit on the brakes and turn the wheel, hoping it'll catch my eventually, but I recall one time where I was sliding towards a rock and just sitting on my brakes, praying not to crash. Is there more useful advice for when the wheels can't get traction? Pumping the brakes, maybe? I figured ABS would save me, but it didn't turn on in that case...

Other question, like that turn where I hit the pothole and my car started wildly swingly left and right, my reaction at first was to compensate, which I'm SURE is wrong, because when it starts sliding left, I'd turn right to try to get it back under control, and it only seemed to make things worse. After a moment I just started braking and eventually stopped. Anything better I can do?

In any case, I know I'm sounding like a terrible driver in this thread, but I'm really not that bad... Just in need of some advice. Snow kicks so much ass, but crashing blows.

First, are you sure you have ABS? Because from your desciption it doesn't sound that way. (BTW, a few years ago I had a very deep pothole obsurred by snow spin me out too, and only got away by luck - and I wasn't even going too fast. Sometimes luck is all you can count on).
Do you get a pulsing in the pedal from the ABS? If you do then your approach of just standing on the brakes is correct.
If you don't have ABS that's almost a new thread, but briefly you should be pumping the brakes...
Do you have an automatic tranny or a standard? I found that when things start getting iffy I'm better off getting the car in neutral and letting it roll through the problem. Once your front wheels and rear wheels are going different speeds you're no longer driving, you're riding a sled.
And when the snow cooperates get yourself to an unplowed slick parking lot and do some playing around to see how the car reacts.
- I hope you have snow tires too!

Other question, like that turn where I hit the pothole and my car started wildly swingly left and right, my reaction at first was to compensate, which I'm SURE is wrong, because when it starts sliding left, I'd turn right to try to get it back under control, and it only seemed to make things worse. After a moment I just started braking and eventually stopped. Anything better I can do?

If your car is skidding you turn INTO the skid. That is you point the wheels in the direction you want the car to go. So if the rear end has slid out to the left you should actually be steering to the left to keep your front wheels pointed down the road. Hope this helps!

just remember on snow and ice when ever your wheels are locked up your going to slide strait. Your always better off to pump your brakes if you dont have ABS and if you are trying to take off....dont spin your tires like mad, let off and try to let them slow down and kinda hook up.
And when you go into a skid you DO want to compensate just try to do it GENTLY!!!!! GENTLY is the key!! You want to be smoothe on the ice. Jerking and swerving will make you loose control even worse.

I live up in ALaska and deal with these kind of conditions every day and i drive for a living on top of that.

Same thing happened to me, except it was in rainy weather and I was taking a turn too quickly. Thread for that is here (http://focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108286), if you're interested. But to summarize, I gently pressed the brakes until it wouldn't go down any further, and slowly turned my wheel to correct myself until it wouldn't go any further. The end result? Nothing. I just sat there and gave up, until the Focus stopped skidding sideways. Luckily the only damage I got out of it was a loosened front sway bar, slightly torn bumper, a dead horn, and a dead passenger side fog light.

I've also experimented with the idea of pumping my brakes, while taking corners. If anything that seemed to make things worse. So I don't think that's a great idea either. I'd only pump my brakes in icy/snowy conditions.

Press the gas? I never really thought of doing this, for fear of flipping the car over or end up oversteering (and crashing at a faster speed than before!). But on the other hand it is a FWD car, so... maybe it would work?

I'd be interested in knowing what to do as well, so I wouldn't have to sit there helplessly and hope I don't hit anything. I really love my Focus, but in some ways I wish it could handle cornering a little better with bumpy roads. It can get very scary at times, especially on a poorly maintained freeway.

First, are you sure you have ABS? Because from your desciption it doesn't sound that way. (BTW, a few years ago I had a very deep pothole obsurred by snow spin me out too, and only got away by luck - and I wasn't even going too fast. Sometimes luck is all you can count on).
Do you get a pulsing in the pedal from the ABS? If you do then your approach of just standing on the brakes is correct.
If you don't have ABS that's almost a new thread, but briefly you should be pumping the brakes...
Do you have an automatic tranny or a standard? I found that when things start getting iffy I'm better off getting the car in neutral and letting it roll through the problem. Once your front wheels and rear wheels are going different speeds you're no longer driving, you're riding a sled.
And when the snow cooperates get yourself to an unplowed slick parking lot and do some playing around to see how the car reacts.
- I hope you have snow tires too!

If he had ABS you would know it. You wouldn't continue to go straight if you had ABS. What it sounds like to me, is the fact that you have all season tires on your car. I would recommend a dedicated snow tire with bad snowy weather. You'll be AMAZED at the grip traction that you have with a tire that's dedicated to a certain application.

The BEST thing you yourself can do, is go into a big open parking lot and test your car out in different situations. make it slide by pulling the e-brake and then try to get back in control. You also NEVER NEVER NEVER hit your brakes in a turn. you will instantly lock up your tires and have absolutely no control over you car. The best thing to is to go SLOW until you're comfortable and can control your car in these situations. I've personally made it a habit not to hit the brakes while during while in turns even in dry conditions. Your tires tend to lock up when you hit the brakes in any turn, just less likely to do it in dry conditions. I bet if you practice these techniques a little more you'll gain confidence and be a all around better driver [thumb]

^
THats a great idea...i learned how to drive my old 2wd on the ice and snow by hours and hours of that......not only did it help me....it was fun :D

It's HARD not to hit your brakes though. It's your gut reaction that tells you, "SLOW THE HELL DOWN!!" and you just do it, ya know? I understand what you mean, but what do you do if your car is fishtailing into a hill at the edge of the road? I gently pressed on my brakes (not all the way down) as I was taught to do in that sort of situation, and I still skidded along the edge of the road. UGHH!!

I know that feeling !! Focus just keeps going straight. As soon as I let off the brake, I could steer again. Up on the sidewalk between a light post and a sign post.

I definitly have ABS, I usually play with that in parking lots and on our street. I've got an automatic transmission. The tires I have are some Goodyear ones, and I really am starting to doubt their potential to handle winter.

I guess I'll have to get a set of snow tires.

in snow or rain...even on dry...you always brake before the turn. When sliding into a turn like that there isn't much u can do. Id downshift and hope for the best. When going crazy sideways in the middle of the road...the only way to fix it is to do it gently like someone mentioned and try to avoid things. best of luck...lol i learned how to handle myself in the snow drving a 94 grand caravan...haha getting a van sideways is rediculous

"I've also experimented with the idea of pumping my brakes, while taking corners. If anything that seemed to make things worse. So I don't think that's a great idea either. I'd only pump my brakes in icy/snowy conditions."

My car has no ABS, so in times of limited traction, I use threshold braking. Basicly pushing the pedal untill u skid, then backing off just a little, so that you are always on that threshold of skidding.

Also, because your car is front wheel drive, the gas pedal can sometimes pull you out of a skid. becuase pressing the brake makes the weight of the car shift over the front wheels, in a turn this can make the back of car like a pendulum that swings out past the front tires (that are now planted on the road). staying off the brakes lessens this weight transfer.

However, these techniques are not ot be tried lightly. I reccommend just like everyone else, to find an empty parking lot and practice. Not to become a dare devil driver, but so you can save yourself and your car in the event of an loss of control.

Also, im going to say go to auto-x events. Racing also teaches you how your car will react at the limits of traction, and its a safe place to drive.

Threshold braking does work rather well is that a technical term? Learn your limits on break and also kick it out of overdrive I don't know if your focus is manual or auto but that will decrease your stopping distance. Snow tires help a great deal I have them love them, and swear by them if you live in the snow belt. Anyways the hitting the gas can be your friend accelerate or kick the car if you start to slide but practice in a parking lot first. You can turn a little slide into a big spin or problem real fast.

"Threshold braking...is that a technical term? "

i think so. I've always known it as such, and I've never heard it called anything different.

thenorm, awesome tip on the accelerating. Of course, I'm not just gonna stomp on the gas the second my tail starts swinging, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Front starts braking, back swings around because it still wants to go.

How much do you think I could get a set of decent snow tires for, with cheap rims? Or hell, I could get nice rims and use my stock ones for the snow ones, and the nice rims for the summer ones.

...lol i learned how to handle myself in the snow drving a 94 grand caravan...haha getting a van sideways is rediculous

lol I learned on a 92 Aerostar. That thing was a monster. I did FULL 360s twice and a couple 180s. not cool.

Now NEVER EVER EVER brake when turning in the snow. if your tires lock up your fed. I have never tried the threashold thing the other people are talkin about, but when I start to slide I just turn the wheel, let off the gas and brake, and hope for the best. It usually works. And definately as the other guys said BREAKE BEFORE the turn. My sisters bf is a cop and they teach you that when you run around the track and whatnot. braking DURING the turn will throw off the weight while turning and can cause a tire to pop or throw you outta control. If you brake BEFORE the turn your weight usually gets redistributed better and you can go from there. practice practice practice. I would try and slide out down my street and whatnot all the time cause no main streets are attached to it and only people that live on or around the street actually use it. I learned a lot doin that. I gotta learn on the manual now though cause I know how to do all this in an auto. Too bad it hasn't snowed yet so I can't try it out.

threshold braking it is then... I learned a new term thanks thenorm... Yeah don't brake or full lock up in a turn just slow down drive careful.

Turns out I got a nasty bent rim from the pothole, so I didn't get to bitch belle tire out. Good thing I found that out before i made a fool of myself. Total repair cost, 68.00.

You have a finite amount of traction available, and it must be budgeted between accelerating, braking and turning. You may have enough traction to turn, but not enough to slow down and turn etc.

When you lose traction, you can expend your entire traction budget trying to stop (heavy braking) and not have enough traction to follow the turn (skid mark leaving the road in a straight line).

You need to be able to use the throttle, brakes and steering at the right time. Possibly I would have gone to what I call “neutral throttle” and tried to ease in some steering input, and probably would have ended up applying light throttle.

BTW, a sudden throttle lift on a manual trans car affects the car same as applying the brakes. You don't notice this until your at the very limit of traction, and then it can become painfully clear.

good tip focus :D I did just notice this today when I was in first riding it up to around 6k I let off the gas and just almost stopped and started to slide :D Now if I am in a manual and say was at the high rev's what woudl be best to do then upshift and figure it out?!? I mean you can't keep on the gas in a slide right?!? :D THanks!

Snow just dropped in my area today! My current ride: infinti g20t is absolutley horrendous in the snow. It once got stuck in 3 inches of snow in the middle of the road.

Wish I had known all these tips then!

it is all about the tires really. I always try to break before going into a corner obviously, and if you plow, give it a lil e brake to swing the ass around a bit. This is pretty easy on side streets and stuff. Hitting a pot hole in the open road and going into a skid next to a lake sucks though. Freeway overpasses can be fun too cuz they are the first thing to ice up if you aren't expecting it. My thing against winter tires is that only half the tread is the winter compound with the other half just being a normal conventional tire. So once you wear that first half down, it is a normal shitty tire. Plus they wear extremely quickly when not being used in the snow. I have had wonderful experiences with the Goodyear Assurance triple tread tire. That is a wonderful all season tire that kicks ass in the snow.

good tip focus :D I did just notice this today when I was in first riding it up to around 6k I let off the gas and just almost stopped and started to slide :D Now if I am in a manual and say was at the high rev's what woudl be best to do then upshift and figure it out?!? I mean you can't keep on the gas in a slide right?!? :D THanks!

Yes to good tires! That being said, you can loose traction with 2” ice spikes if you out-drive your special tires.

You were in effect braking when you lifted throttle. The 1st thing I would have suggested (had I been sitting on your shoulder) is "Relax!", next I would tell you to ease (in a rapid way) more throttle until your engine is neither trying to slow the car, or accelerate the car (neutral throttle). Since you were at a high RPM, you will need a lot of RPM's to reach neutral throttle. Next, relax some more, look where you want to go (if you look where you don't want to go, you'll drive there) and scan way down the road. If you are still skidding and have the room, ease up on any steering inputs until the car begins to regain traction, then gradually add steering input. Lightly, lightly increase throttle until you are slightly past neutral throttle and drive through the problem. Consciously relax your shoulders.

Riding dirt bikes I’ve found the throttle is often a better friend than the brakes are when you’re in trouble. Bikes and cars don’t turn “off-throttle” very well.

^^ yeah, thats pretty much all of it.

I try to plan ahead while driving in conditions like that. Mind my gearing as well..keep the rpms low (geared high or OD off) so you arent so prone to spinning wheels if you get on the gas.

When i come to a turn, I ease on the brake and combo that with downshifting...this helps tons cause ideally you will want to gear it out around the turn with little or no brakes. FocusInAlaska's dead on with the ppoint that brakes can lead to more disaster than help. You really want to match your wheels with your speed so you gain control.

best way to get comfy with it is to play in parking lots at night. wait till your dump of snow and go have some fun. It helps a TON to be comfortable with sliding your car around and being able to predict what your inputs are going to equate to.

I used to ebrake my way with my old car if need be but this car's ebrake blows..I have the baer kit and it's not calibrated correctly and they don't do too much. I'm too lazy to fix it and you need 2 people to do it. So I'm screwed till someone helps me lol

FocusInAlaska, you added perfectly to what I said. (you race, i guess)

i was just about to go into the limits of traction and how you only have so much for accel, brake and turn. ex. u cant turn when ur skidding, or cant accelerate when 100%into a turn.

if anyone want to know more or cares about physics, google for anything about traction circles.

it looks like this http://python.rice.edu/~arb/Courses/615_circle.pdf
the circles edge is the limit of traction